Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Ed & Dave Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-22-2007, 02:28 PM  
the Talking Can the Talking Can is offline
MVP
 
the Talking Can's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: street
Casino cash: $5342
Surge results: Democracy now optional

This is the end result of Bush's war. The Generals have spoken.

Quote:
U.S. officials rethink hopes for Iraq democracy


BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Nightmarish political realities in Baghdad are prompting American officials to curb their vision for democracy in Iraq. Instead, the officials now say they are willing to settle for a government that functions and can bring security.

A workable democratic and sovereign government in Iraq was one of the Bush administration's stated goals of the war.

But for the first time, exasperated front-line U.S. generals talk openly of non-democratic governmental alternatives, and while the two top U.S. officials in Iraq still talk about preserving the country's nascent democratic institutions, they say their ambitions aren't as "lofty" as they once had been.

"Democratic institutions are not necessarily the way ahead in the long-term future," said Brig. Gen. John "Mick" Bednarek, part of Task Force Lightning in Diyala province, one of the war's major battlegrounds.

The comments reflect a practicality common among Western diplomats and officials trying to win hearts and minds in the Middle East and other non-Western countries where democracy isn't a tradition.

The failure of Iraq to emerge from widespread instability is a bitter pill for the United States, which optimistically toppled the Saddam Hussein regime more than four years ago. Millions of Iraqis went to the polls to cast ballots, something that generated great promise for the establishment of a democratic system.

But Iraqi institutions, from the infrastructure to the national government, are widely regarded as ineffective in the fifth year of the war.

U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker and Gen. David Petraeus, the top American commander in Iraq, declined to be interviewed for this story, but they issued a joint statement to CNN that reiterated that the country's "fundamental democratic framework is in place" and that "the development of democratic institutions is being encouraged."

And, they said, they are helping Iraqi political leaders find ways "to share power and achieve legislative progress."

But Crocker and Petraeus conceded they are "now engaged in pursuing less lofty and ambitious goals than was the case at the outset."

Maj. Gen. Benjamin Mixon, commander of Task Force Lightning, also reflected a less lofty American goal for Iraq's future.

"I would describe it as leaving an effective government behind that can provide services to its people, and security. It needs to be an effective and functioning government that is really a partner with the United States and the rest of the world in this fight against the terrorists," said Mixon, who will not be perturbed if such goals are reached without democracy.

"Well, see that all over the Middle East," he said, stating that democracy is merely an option, that Iraqis are free to choose or reject.

"But that is the $50,000 question. ... What will this government look like? Will it be a democracy? Will it not?" he asked.

Soldiers, he said, are fighting for security, a goal Mixon described as "core to my mission."

But security is far from complete in Iraq, where the government seems dysfunctional and paralyzed.

Seventeen of the 37 Iraqi Cabinet ministers either boycott or don't attend Cabinet meetings. Parliament, now on a much-criticized month-long summer break, has yet to pass key legislation in the areas of energy resource sharing and the future roles of former members of Hussein's Baath Party. U.S. officials, including President Bush, have said there is frustration with efforts by the government of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki to promote political reconciliation.

The government is unable to supply regular electricity and at times running water in the capital. The health care system is run by one Iranian-backed militia and the national police are dominated by another. Death squads terrorize Sunni neighborhoods.

Sectarian cleansing is pushing people into segregated enclaves, protected by Shiite or U.S.-backed Sunni militias, and spurring the flight of thousands to neighboring countries.

Thousands of innocents are dying violently every month in cities and villages across the country.


Iraqi government officials concede things aren't working, but they say that's because the United States doesn't allow Iraq to really control its own destiny.

While the Iraqi government commands its own troops, it cannot send them into battle without U.S. agreement. Iraqi Special Forces answer only to U.S. officers.

"We don't have full sovereignty," said Hadi al-Amri, the chairman of parliament's Defense and Security Committee. "We don't have sovereignty over our troops, we don't have sovereignty over our provinces. We admit it."

And because of the very real prospect of Iranian infiltration, the government doesn't fund or control its own intelligence service. It's paid for and run by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency.

Abdul Qarim al-Enzi, director of the parliamentary ethics committee, asks whether it is "reasonable for a country given sovereignty by the international community to have a chief of intelligence appointed by another country."

One senior U.S. official in Baghdad told CNN that "any country with 160,000 foreigners fighting for it sacrifices some sovereignty."

The U.S. government has long cautioned that a fully functioning democracy would be slow to emerge in Iraq. But with key U.S. senators calling for al-Maliki's removal, some senior U.S. military commanders even suggest privately the entire Iraqi government must be removed by "constitutional or non-constitutional" means and replaced with a stable, secure, but not necessarily democratic entity.
Hard news from the real world.
Posts: 48,796
the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2007, 02:33 PM   #2
StcChief StcChief is offline
Playing for #1 Draft Pick
 
StcChief's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Just West of Lambs land
Casino cash: $5000
The Saddam replacement must be found. Get the bulldozers out, start digging big ditch we are gonna need it for the mass graves.
Posts: 25,902
StcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking about
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2007, 02:37 PM   #3
Adept Havelock Adept Havelock is offline
Obligatory Thoughtcriminal
 
Adept Havelock's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Flux,awaiting an observer
Casino cash: $5000
I thought it was racist to state democracy wouldn't take hold in Iraq.
__________________
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up. -Lily Tomlin

I'd rather be a climbing monkey than a falling angel. -Terry Pratchett
Posts: 14,303
Adept Havelock is not part of the Right 53.Adept Havelock is not part of the Right 53.Adept Havelock is not part of the Right 53.Adept Havelock is not part of the Right 53.Adept Havelock is not part of the Right 53.Adept Havelock is not part of the Right 53.Adept Havelock is not part of the Right 53.Adept Havelock is not part of the Right 53.Adept Havelock is not part of the Right 53.Adept Havelock is not part of the Right 53.Adept Havelock is not part of the Right 53.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2007, 02:37 PM   #4
the Talking Can the Talking Can is offline
MVP
 
the Talking Can's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: street
Casino cash: $5342
Quote:
Originally Posted by StcChief
The Saddam replacement must be found. Get the bulldozers out, start digging big ditch we are gonna need it for the mass graves.

you don't pay attention to what is going on, but Iraqis are being slaughtered by the tens of thousands....have been almost since the beginning...millions have fled the country....

Bush decided to invade with no plan for providing security. He is the man responsible for it.
__________________
Clark Hunt: "Thank god for the Dominican pool boy"
Posts: 48,796
the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.the Talking Can is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2007, 03:33 PM   #5
StcChief StcChief is offline
Playing for #1 Draft Pick
 
StcChief's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Just West of Lambs land
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Talking Can
you don't pay attention to what is going on, but Iraqis are being slaughtered by the tens of thousands....have been almost since the beginning...millions have fled the country....

Bush decided to invade with no plan for providing security. He is the man responsible for it.
Good luck with that. The fighting over religion there has been going on for 2000 years. My Islam is better than yours If you don't agree I kill you.
Posts: 25,902
StcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking about
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2007, 04:00 PM   #6
ChiefaRoo ChiefaRoo is offline
Nite Nite
 
ChiefaRoo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Austin,TX
Casino cash: $5050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adept Havelock
I thought it was racist to state democracy wouldn't take hold in Iraq.
The phrase was "Soft Bigotry"
Posts: 10,109
ChiefaRoo would the whole thing.ChiefaRoo would the whole thing.ChiefaRoo would the whole thing.ChiefaRoo would the whole thing.ChiefaRoo would the whole thing.ChiefaRoo would the whole thing.ChiefaRoo would the whole thing.ChiefaRoo would the whole thing.ChiefaRoo would the whole thing.ChiefaRoo would the whole thing.ChiefaRoo would the whole thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2007, 04:03 PM   #7
Taco John Taco John is offline
12on Paul
 
Taco John's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2001
Casino cash: $5550
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefaRoo
The phrase was "Soft Bigotry"


Not around here it wasn't, new-comer. It was "racist."
Posts: 50,840
Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2007, 09:44 PM   #8
Ugly Duck Ugly Duck is offline
Proof: ChargerFanz DO exist!
 
Ugly Duck's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
Casino cash: $5095
Iraq Body Count Running at Double Pace
By STEVEN R. HURST, Associated Press Writer
2 hours ago

BAGHDAD - This year's U.S. troop buildup has succeeded in bringing violence in Baghdad down from peak levels, but the death toll from sectarian attacks around the country is running nearly double the pace from a year ago.

Some of the recent bloodshed appears the result of militant fighters drifting into parts of northern Iraq, where they have fled after U.S.-led offensives. Baghdad, however, still accounts for slightly more than half of all war-related killings _ the same percentage as a year ago, according to figures compiled by The Associated Press.

The tallies and trends offer a sobering snapshot after an additional 30,000 U.S. troops began campaigns in February to regain control of the Baghdad area. It also highlights one of the major themes expected in next month's Iraq progress report to Congress: some military headway, but extremist factions are far from broken.

In street-level terms, it means life for average Iraqis appears to be even more perilous and unpredictable.

The AP tracking includes Iraqi civilians, government officials, police and security forces killed in attacks such as gunfights and bombings, which are frequently blamed on Sunni suicide strikes. It also includes execution-style killings _ largely the work of Shiite death squads.

The figures are considered a minimum based on AP reporting. The actual numbers are likely higher, as many killings go unreported or uncounted. Insurgent deaths are not a part of the Iraqi count.

http://www.comcast.net/news/index.js...25/748135.html
__________________
Posts: 9,845
Ugly Duck is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Ugly Duck is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Ugly Duck is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Ugly Duck is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Ugly Duck is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Ugly Duck is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Ugly Duck is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Ugly Duck is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Ugly Duck is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Ugly Duck is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Ugly Duck is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2007, 10:20 PM   #9
Bowser Bowser is offline
Eff an A, Cotton!!
 
Bowser's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In Transition
Casino cash: $1072
What a waste.
Posts: 52,114
Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 05:30 AM   #10
Ultra Peanut Ultra Peanut is offline
v^V^v^V^v^V^
 
Ultra Peanut's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Holland*
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by StcChief
Good luck with that. The fighting over religion there has been going on for 2000 years. My Islam is better than yours If you don't agree I kill you.
So they were all killing each other before we invaded? We took away the one thing (a stable government) that was preventing them from doing so, with no coherent plan to replace it.

Aside from Dick Cheney, Barack Obama, and a few other people, I guess nobody could have seen this coming...
__________________
Posts: 39,495
Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 02:23 PM   #11
go bowe go bowe is offline
bye bye bo...
 
go bowe's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: independence
Casino cash: $5197
gawd damn, girl...

dick cheney in the same sentence as hussein?

you're going to overload somebody's circuits (patteeu comes to mind)...
Posts: 30,005
go bowe 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.go bowe 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.go bowe 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.go bowe 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.go bowe 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.go bowe 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.go bowe 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.go bowe 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.go bowe 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.go bowe 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.go bowe 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 02:40 PM   #12
HolmeZz HolmeZz is offline
i guess its bittersweet poetry
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NeW HaVeN, CT
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by go bowe
gawd damn, girl...

dick cheney in the same sentence as hussein?

you're going to overload somebody's circuits (patteeu comes to mind)...
Obviously Dick was right and Barack was wrong.
Posts: 16,520
HolmeZz is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.HolmeZz is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.HolmeZz is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.HolmeZz is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.HolmeZz is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.HolmeZz is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.HolmeZz is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.HolmeZz is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 08:08 PM   #13
StcChief StcChief is offline
Playing for #1 Draft Pick
 
StcChief's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Just West of Lambs land
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra Peanut
So they were all killing each other before we invaded? We took away the one thing (a stable government) that was preventing them from doing so, with no coherent plan to replace it.

Aside from Dick Cheney, Barack Obama, and a few other people, I guess nobody could have seen this coming...
I guess uniting about freely able to elect and govern themselves "as a Concept" Not run by a dictator was something totally foreign to Iraqi's.

I'm not buying it. The sh1t distrubers that are losing out by free elections are mob thugs that are threating much like Saddams henchmen
of old. Shut up and we will attach the Americans in gorrilla war.

If you squeel or help we will kill you.
Posts: 25,902
StcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutStcChief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking about
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 08:13 PM   #14
Ultra Peanut Ultra Peanut is offline
v^V^v^V^v^V^
 
Ultra Peanut's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Holland*
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by StcChief
I guess uniting about freely able to elect and govern themselves "as a Concept" Not run by a dictator was something totally foreign to Iraqi's.

I'm not buying it. The sh1t distrubers that are losing out by free elections are mob thugs that are threating much like Saddams henchmen
of old. Shut up and we will attach the Americans in gorrilla war.

If you squeel or help we will kill you.
What. The ****. Language was that?
__________________
Posts: 39,495
Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.Ultra Peanut wants to die in a aids tree fire.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 09:59 PM   #15
jAZ jAZ is offline
Supporter
 
jAZ's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Tucson, AZ
Casino cash: $5155
Just out of curiousity...

How many of all of those mass graves were people killed by Saddam in the last say 5-10 years?

Particularly during the no-fly zones and other restrictions.

Seems like we might be in for another "surge" of mass violence as another American backed brutal dictator takes control of the country we just "freed" from the last one.

What a mess.
Posts: 24,759
jAZ has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.jAZ has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.jAZ has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.jAZ has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.jAZ has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.jAZ has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.jAZ has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.jAZ has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.jAZ has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.jAZ has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.jAZ has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.