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Old 03-27-2008, 08:50 AM  
Logical Logical is offline
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Civil Society Returning to Iraq says Bush

What he fails to mention is that our occupation destroyed it and the US taxpayer is paying to restore it.

Hell every bit of progress being touted is being paid for by the US taxpayer who is seeing our own countries economy go into the shittter.
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:03 AM   #2
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Can any society in that region be considered 'civil'?
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:08 AM   #3
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Can any society in that region be considered 'civil'?
According to TJ, civil society is a concoction of the left and doesn't really exist.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:09 AM   #4
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Our economy is going to be fine. Maybe a name change to "Chicken Little" is in order.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:09 AM   #5
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Our economy is going to be fine, chicken little.
Says Dick Cheney. Oh, and deficits don't matter, either.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penchief View Post
According to TJ, civil society is a concoction of the left and doesn't really exist.
So I guess you agree that a civil society did exist in Iraq before we went over there and unjustly interrupted it.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:24 AM   #7
Iowanian Iowanian is offline
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Iraq did not have a civil society before we kicked the shit out of them.

mass murder, streets full of raw sewage, people shitting in corners of their homes, girls not allowed education....

Iraq was a shithole before we got there and their only hope of civil society begins when our military has killed off enough of their assholes.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:26 AM   #8
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penchief View Post
According to TJ, civil society is a concoction of the left and doesn't really exist.

You're not a very precise person.

"Society" is an abstraction. It's not a real entity. "Society" has no rights.

There's such a thing as "Society." It exists in people's minds. Thus, it just isn't important. Individuals are what is important.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:26 AM   #9
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So I guess you agree that a civil society did exist in Iraq before we went over there and unjustly interrupted it.
What I said is that TJ doesn't believe in the concept of civil society. That's all. So if civil society isn't achievable anywhere, how can it have existed in Iraq?
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:27 AM   #10
Brock Brock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penchief View Post
What I said is that TJ doesn't believe in the concept of civil society. That's all. So if civil society isn't achievable anywhere, how can it have existed in Iraq?
If by "civil society" you mean "controlling, nosy government" then it did exist in Iraq and it exists in America too.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:27 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowanian View Post
Iraq did not have a civil society before we kicked the shit out of them.

mass murder, streets full of raw sewage, people shitting in corners of their homes, girls not allowed education....

Iraq was a shithole before we got there and their only hope of civil society begins when our military has killed off enough of their assholes.


Nothing you said there is actually true.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:36 AM   #12
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You're not a very precise person.

"Society" is an abstraction. It's not a real entity. "Society" has no rights.

There's such a thing as "Society." It's just not important. Individuals are what is important.
Society is made up of individuals who have common interests. Those interests are served through civil means. That is why we have laws and regulations that protect not only the individual, but the common good. Those laws and regulations are the tools by which those common interests are served. That's what a civil society is.

I think I'm much more precise than you are. You operate in theory only. A dose of realism would help you understand why liberty is more than just economic Darwinism.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:49 AM   #13
Iowanian Iowanian is offline
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Nothing you said there is actually true.
Really? I guess your ass would be aching then.

If you had a clue of what you were talking about, or had spent much time actually talking to any soldiers or engineers who have been there, you'd know that the Iraqi sewer, water and electrical systems had been severely neglected for decades, in areas outside of those chosen sunni areas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/23/wo...=1&oref=slogin





I've seen a lot of photos like these from soldiers....this didn't start the day we arrived.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:51 AM   #14
Iowanian Iowanian is offline
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Here is a villages water treatment system



I'm not posting photos, but you wouldn't have to look to hard to find soldiers who will quickly tell you that many Iraqis have a room in their homes...where they shit on the floor....or step out into the front yard and drop duece 5 steps from their front door.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:54 AM   #15
Iowanian Iowanian is offline
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http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/watsan.html

In 2003, Iraq's 140 major water treatment facilities were operating at about 35 percent of their design capacity (3 billion liters a day) due to inadequate maintenance, lack of plant operators, power shortages, and looting. USAID is helping improve the efficiency and reliability of existing treatment facilities, and is constructing several new facilities, especially in the south where water quality is particularly poor. Iraq has 13 major wastewater treatment facilities, operating at about a quarter of their design capacity. Baghdad's three sewage plants, comprising three quarters of the nation's total sewage treatment capacity, were not treating waste for more than six years before the conflict, allowing raw waste to flow into the Tigris River. In the rest of the country, most wastewater treatment facilities were only partly operational before the conflict, and a shortage of electricity, parts, and trained staff exacerbated the situation.

I'm wrong about neglect of female education in Iraq too?

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Poli...rthAfrica.aspx

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/wrd/iraq-women.htm

"since the 1991 Gulf War, the position of women within Iraqi society has deteriorated rapidly. Women and girls were disproportionately affected by the economic consequences of the U.N. sanctions, and lacked access to food, health care, and education. These effects were compounded by changes in the law that restricted women's mobility and access to the formal sector in an effort to ensure jobs to men and appease conservative religious and tribal groups. "


A Donkey says what?
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