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Old 04-14-2008, 10:20 PM  
irishjayhawk irishjayhawk is offline
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Tonight I watched Guilty By Suspicion with Robert De Niro. Great film and one that always makes me mad because it involves McCarthyism. It's a really bad black mark against the U.S. yet some of the things said during that time apply today pretty heavily. And much of it on this very forum.

I give you Murrow's quote:
Quote:
If we confuse dissent with disloyalty— if we deny the right of the individual to be wrong, unpopular, eccentric or unorthodox— if we deny the essence of racial equality then hundreds of millions in Asia and Africa who are shopping about for a new allegiance will conclude that we are concerned to defend a myth and our present privileged status. Every act that denies or limits the freedom of the individual in this country costs us the ... confidence of men and women who aspire to that freedom and independence of which we speak and for which our ancestors fought.

I don't see how it can be put any more succinctly or eloquently than that. I've seen it time and time again on this forum, the main stream media and in every day experiences.

Are we confusing, in this era of the "GWoT", dissent with disloyalty?
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:25 PM   #2
ClevelandBronco ClevelandBronco is offline
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I don't think there's anything like McCarthyism going on these days, so no.
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:36 PM   #3
irishjayhawk irishjayhawk is offline
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
I don't think there's anything like McCarthyism going on these days, so no.
Sorry, my mistake. We just have domestic spying so you don't have to rat anyone out.

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Old 04-14-2008, 10:51 PM   #4
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What happens when you confuse disloyalty with dissent? Any word from Murrow on this issue?
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:56 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
What happens when you confuse disloyalty with dissent? Any word from Murrow on this issue?
What's your corollary remainder?
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:25 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by banyon View Post
What's your corollary remainder?
I have trouble imagining how such a thing could be quantified. Subjectively, I don't think a large portion of what passes for dissent is really full-blown disloyalty, but I think it exists (as it did during the 60's when there really were radicals who wanted the communists to prevail in the cold war).

I do think that there is a second group of irresponsible dissenters who fall short of disloyalty but who do more damage to their own country than good though. I'd say that Jimmy Carter is dangerously close to the latter category.
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I have trouble imagining how such a thing could be quantified. Subjectively, I don't think a large portion of what passes for dissent is really full-blown disloyalty, but I think it exists (as it did during the 60's when there really were radicals who wanted the communists to prevail in the cold war).

I do think that there is a second group of irresponsible dissenters who fall short of disloyalty but who do more damage to their own country than good though. I'd say that Jimmy Carter is dangerously close to the latter category.
Where does Bush fall on that scale? He's done a shitload of things that have damaged the country.
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishjayhawk View Post
Where does Bush fall on that scale? He's done a shitload of things that have damaged the country.
Bush isn't engaged in dissent pretty much by definition.

But you didn't answer my question. Any thoughts on the downside of mistaking disloyalty or irresponsible dissent for legitimate dissent?
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I have trouble imagining how such a thing could be quantified. Subjectively, I don't think a large portion of what passes for dissent is really full-blown disloyalty, but I think it exists (as it did during the 60's when there really were radicals who wanted the communists to prevail in the cold war).

I do think that there is a second group of irresponsible dissenters who fall short of disloyalty but who do more damage to their own country than good though. I'd say that Jimmy Carter is dangerously close to the latter category.
Difficult to imagine? I'll bet.

I'm asking for the analogous reply to the remainder of the quote:

Quote:
if we deny the right of the individual to be wrong, unpopular, eccentric or unorthodox— if we deny the essence of racial equality then hundreds of millions in Asia and Africa who are shopping about for a new allegiance will conclude that we are concerned to defend a myth and our present privileged status. Every act that denies or limits the freedom of the individual in this country costs us the ... confidence of men and women who aspire to that freedom and independence of which we speak and for which our ancestors fought.
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:38 PM   #10
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Looks like this thread could use some of this...

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Old 04-14-2008, 11:47 PM   #11
irishjayhawk irishjayhawk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Bush isn't engaged in dissent pretty much by definition.

But you didn't answer my question. Any thoughts on the downside of mistaking disloyalty or irresponsible dissent for legitimate dissent?
I'd need an example of mistaking disloyalty for legit dissent because I can't think of anything that would qualify.

Irresponsible dissent for legitimate dissent will always be debated just like the start of life is now. It depends from person to person.
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banyon View Post
Difficult to imagine? I'll bet.

I'm asking for the analogous reply to the remainder of the quote:
That's really the same question I was asking IrishJayhawk.

Here's one idea for an answer though. If anyone can feel free to say and do the most damaging things imaginable to our war effort in the name of dissent, we will lose our ability to wage effective war. And we will lose the credibility we need to recruit committed allies. We are seeing some of this in Iraq right now. When people like Harry Reid stand up and say the war is lost or people like Nancy Pelosi suggest that the time has come to put withdrawal ahead of success on the priority list, Iraqis who might otherwise have collaborated with us will choose to wait it out rather than get their names on lists that may come back to haunt them once we abandon them.
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:55 PM   #13
irishjayhawk irishjayhawk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
That's really the same question I was asking IrishJayhawk.

Here's one idea for an answer though. If anyone can feel free to say and do the most damaging things imaginable to our war effort in the name of dissent, we will lose our ability to wage effective war. And we will lose the credibility we need to recruit committed allies. We are seeing some of this in Iraq right now. When people like Harry Reid stand up and say the war is lost or people like Nancy Pelosi suggest that the time has come to put withdrawal ahead of success on the priority list, Iraqis who might otherwise have collaborated with us will choose to wait it out rather than get their names on lists that may come back to haunt them once we abandon them.
So people who compare this war to Vietnam are hurting the war? Isn't that exactly what the quote means - confusing dissent (for the war) with disloyalty (wanting to destroy America)?
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
That's really the same question I was asking IrishJayhawk.

Here's one idea for an answer though. If anyone can feel free to say and do the most damaging things imaginable to our war effort in the name of dissent, we will lose our ability to wage effective war. And we will lose the credibility we need to recruit committed allies. We are seeing some of this in Iraq right now. When people like Harry Reid stand up and say the war is lost or people like Nancy Pelosi suggest that the time has come to put withdrawal ahead of success on the priority list, Iraqis who might otherwise have collaborated with us will choose to wait it out rather than get their names on lists that may come back to haunt them once we abandon them.

The only thing I care about militarily is the defense of our nation. Our ability to "wage war" means nothing to me outside of that.
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Old 04-15-2008, 12:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishjayhawk View Post
Tonight I watched Guilty By Suspicion with Robert De Niro. Great film and one that always makes me mad because it involves McCarthyism. It's a really bad black mark against the U.S. yet some of the things said during that time apply today pretty heavily. And much of it on this very forum.

I give you Murrow's quote:



I don't see how it can be put any more succinctly or eloquently than that. I've seen it time and time again on this forum, the main stream media and in every day experiences.

Are we confusing, in this era of the "GWoT", dissent with disloyalty?
I hope you are not suggesting that abandoning your principles by leaving this forum is the answer. The answer is the same ones that the people who stood up to McCarthyism had to provide, stand-up for what you believe in and stick with it. Meanwhile take heart you can't be blacklisted in the real world for doing it.
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