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Old 10-15-2008, 08:31 PM  
irishjayhawk irishjayhawk is offline
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Vouchers

Why are you for or against?
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:33 PM   #2
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I'm neither for or against. I question the benefit and I doubt the cost savings that some claim.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:34 PM   #3
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Against.
I know far too many kids who would simply fall through the cracks.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:44 PM   #4
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I'm not opposed to trying them. I think we should try a district or two first to see the effects.

Things are abysmal, we have to do something different than just slightly more money at the problem.


I'm for trying : 1) year long school year (with periodic breaks) 2) ending teacher tenure and encouraging performance-based pay 3) doubling teacher pay & having heavy loan forgiveness programs for teachers in public schools 4) also experimenting with a tiered school system a la the UK (I'd be curious to hear Donger's view on this, since he hates their health system so much).
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:47 PM   #5
DaKCMan AP DaKCMan AP is offline
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I am against vouchers that can be used to send kids to parochial schools using taxpayer money.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:49 PM   #6
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I think they would turn our public schools into ghettos by encouraging motivated, education-prizing families to move their kids to private schools. This would then cause even more drastic discrepancies in test results between private and public schools that would eventually be used as justification for completely abolishing public education. We already see people claiming the superiority of private education while ignoring that the clientele in private schools is completely different than that of public schools. Vouchers would only exaggerate this difference.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:55 PM   #7
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I"m in favor of giving parents choice. The way to do that is encourage a voucher system and an evironment where schools compete for those vouchers.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:56 PM   #8
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I wish McCain had focused on this issue druing his campaign, instead of focusing his campaign on Barack Obama. This is an issue that might have moved me back into the McCain camp from 2000.
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:01 PM   #9
Sully Sully is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewPhin View Post
I think they would turn our public schools into ghettos by encouraging motivated, education-prizing families to move their kids to private schools. This would then cause even more drastic discrepancies in test results between private and public schools that would eventually be used as justification for completely abolishing public education. We already see people claiming the superiority of private education while ignoring that the clientele in private schools is completely different than that of public schools. Vouchers would only exaggerate this difference.
Yep.
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:03 PM   #10
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:08 PM   #11
OnTheWarpath58 OnTheWarpath58 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewPhin View Post
I think they would turn our public schools into ghettos by encouraging motivated, education-prizing families to move their kids to private schools. This would then cause even more drastic discrepancies in test results between private and public schools that would eventually be used as justification for completely abolishing public education. We already see people claiming the superiority of private education while ignoring that the clientele in private schools is completely different than that of public schools. Vouchers would only exaggerate this difference.
Great post.
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:32 PM   #12
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Originally Posted by Friendo View Post
"agenda is simple. Do away with public schools and teachers’ unions, while systematizing for-profit schools that will supposedly be more competitive and efficient..."



awesome.
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:37 PM   #13
jidar jidar is offline
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dont like school vouchers

Nice to see this issue brought up again.

This was an issue that was in the national spotlight for a period during the 2000 presidential elections. Firstly anyone considering this issue should be immediately suspicious because it's been a core thing that the religious right has tried to put through for years. Their motive for this is that the vouchers would mostly end up going to private religious schools. I'll ignore the issues that brings up concerning separation of church and state and whether these are pure motives, and instead consider the issue on it's merits alone.

To really understand this issue you have to understand where the people advocating it are coming from. Basically this idea had the strongest support during the 80s and 90s when the idea was that capitalism and free market principles could run literally every type of service or need better than any type of managed or regulated service could. Of course with that in mind it explains why Mccain has always been very supportive of the idea because he's a free market no regulation kind of guy. Or at least he was until the current financial crisis.

The problem with it is, like many social programs, the free market doesn't do a good enough job for education. The reason for this is that free market principles aren't good at maximizing services for people, what the free market is good at doing is maximizing profits and reinforcing economic actively, and that's not precisely the same thing as providing the best service possible at the most affordable cost to the most people even though a lot of free market people will try to pretend that is. Free market doesn't always create the best products, what it does is it creates the most profitable businesses. In short it creates Wal-Mart, and that's the reason it isn't the best choice for social programs like education, fire fighting, law enforcement, and utilities. My argument kind of goes back to the old cliche about 90% of businesses failing in the first 5 years, well with that in mind do you want those types of failure rates to occur in your school system? That's exactly what happened to Cleveland when they introduced school vouchers in the mid 90s, many new start up schools popped up to take advantage of this new market and they were run on shoestring budgets to make a profit and a lot of them failed within the first few years.

So the truth is school vouchers have been tried a handful of times in various places and have either failed dramatically or at best had debatable results, Cleveland in particular was a complete disaster, and Milwaukee has struggled with how their program has divided their classes for dubious results.

In my mind, either way we have to pay for the schooling with taxes the difference is one method ends up leaving a lot of kids out in the cold, and not just poor ones but even middle class ones who just happened to try a school with a bad business plan.

Listen I'm a capitalist, I like the free market for our economy, but social services don't need to be ran the same way. Every time it's tried it never works out.

Edit: Also I almost forgot to mention. The schools around the world that are beating us in these standardized tests are government run, so it can be done and done well.

Last edited by jidar; 10-15-2008 at 09:43 PM..
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:40 PM   #14
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Yep. I'm convinced McCain could have won my vote if he spent any time campaigning on this idea.

What a dope.
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:41 PM   #15
Sully Sully is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jidar View Post
Nice to see this issue brought up again.

This was an issue that was in the national spotlight for a period during the 2000 presidential elections. Firstly anyone considering this issue should be immediately suspicious because it's been a core thing that the religious right has tried to put through for years. Their motive for this is that the vouchers would mostly end up going to private religious schools. I'll ignore the issues that brings up concerning separation of church and state and whether these are pure motives, and instead consider the issue on it's merits alone.

To really understand this issue you have to understand where the people advocating it are coming from. Basically this idea had the strongest support during the 80s and 90s when the idea was that capitalism and free market principles could run literally every type of service or need better than any type of managed or regulated service. Of course with that in mind it explains why Mccain has always been very supportive of the idea because he's a free market no regulation kind of guy. Or at least he was until the current financial crisis.

The problem with it is, like many social programs, the free market doesn't do a good enough job for education. The reason for this is that free market principles aren't good at maximizing services for people, what the free market is good at doing is maximizing profits and reinforcing economic actively, and that's not precisely the same thing as providing the best service possible at the most affordable cost to the most people even though a lot of free market people will try to pretend that is. Free market doesn't always create the best products, what it does is it creates the most profitable businesses. In short it creates Wal-Mart, and that's the reason it isn't the best choice for social programs like education, fire fighting, law enforcement, and utilities. My argument kind of goes back to the old cliche about 90% of businesses failing in the first 5 years, well with that in mind do you want those types of failure rates to occur in your school system? That's exactly what happened to Cleveland when they introduced school vouchers in the mid 90s, many new start up schools popped up to take advantage of this new market and they were run on shoestring budgets to make a profit and a lot of them failed within the first few years.

So the truth is school vouchers have been tried a handful of times in various places and have either failed dramatically or at best had debatable results, Cleveland in particular was a complete disaster, and Milwaukee has struggled with how their program has divided their classes for dubious results.

In my mind, either way we have to pay for the schooling with taxes the difference is one method ends up leaving a lot of kids out in the cold, and not just poor ones but even middle class ones who just happened to try a school with a bad business plan.

Listen I'm a capitalist, I like the free market for our economy, but social services don't need to be ran the same way. Every time it's tried it never works out.
Well said.
Thank you.
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