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Old 10-31-2008, 06:42 AM  
jidar jidar is offline
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OOOOkkkaayy. I believe they didn't think this one through.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...on_when_yo.php

Where's Charlton Heston when you need him?

Category: Religion
Posted on: October 29, 2008 9:59 PM, by PZ Myers

Some Christian fanatics are concerned, quite reasonably, about the economy, and have chosen, quite absurdly, to try and correct the problem with prayer. So far, so typical, but then well, they picked a peculiarly oblivious way to do it. They prayed before a statue of a golden bull on Wall Street.



We are going to intercede at the site of the statue of the bull on Wall Street to ask God to begin a shift from the bull and bear markets to what we feel will be the 'Lion's Market,' or God's control over the economic systems. While we do not have the full revelation of all this will entail, we do know that without intercession, economies will crumble.

Just a clue: there's this book called "the bible" that these people claim to follow, but I suspect they've never actually read it, or they might have seen Exodus 32.

golden_calf.jpg

1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

2And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

3And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

4And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

5And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.

6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

They even made a movie of it, if cracking a book is too highbrow.

Trust me, this is one of those things in the Judeo-Christian heritage that never ends well. There's this jealous god who does smitings.
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:43 AM   #2
Ultra Peanut Ultra Peanut is offline
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Was this, like, ironic?

Please tell me they got the joke.
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:06 AM   #3
Alphaman Alphaman is offline
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The author of the article (and the responses below the article on the link) are being a bit presumptuous. The article said "We are going to intercede at the site of the statue of the bull on Wall Street to ask God to begin a shift from the bull and bear markets to what we feel will be the 'Lion's Market,' or God's control over the economic systems. While we do not have the full revelation of all this will entail, we do know that without intercession, economies will crumble."

So in essence they weren't praying to the statue, but praying against what the statue stands for. This would seem to be an example (quite frankly, another example) of people not understanding how people who live by faith, exercise their faith.
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:08 AM   #4
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They did it the wrong way, that's for sure.
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:15 AM   #5
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When Ronald Reagan gave a speech denouncing the Berlin Wall, did he:

a - Give it from the Oval Office?
b - Give it from the Berlin Wall?

Nothing to see here - except for the totally deceitful hatchet job by the anti-religious Pharyngula [self-described as "Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal"] and Wonkette (where he lifted the story).

I wonder how many will be taken in by such a simple lie? It seems to have already snared a few right here - I guess they didn't think it through.
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:20 AM   #6
Alphaman Alphaman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYC75 View Post
They did it the wrong way, that's for sure.
If you have an understanding of people who live by their faith, they didn't.
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:25 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphaman View Post
If you have an understanding of people who live by their faith, they didn't.
Uh, no.

I have an understanding of people who live by faith, and these people are oblivious dopes. I'm sure their intention isn't wicked, but the symbolism is about as bad as it gets.

And the whole idea of praying for the economy is one of the most spiritually empty thing a person could pray for. If these people truly lived by faith, then praying for the economy would be the last thing they'd think to do.
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:33 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post

And the whole idea of praying for the economy is one of the most spiritually empty thing a person could pray for. If these people truly lived by faith, then praying for the economy would be the last thing they'd think to do.

WTF?! are you talking about??

Praying to avoid THIS is as Holy as it gets:











Last edited by orange; 10-31-2008 at 09:40 AM..
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:35 AM   #9
Frazod Frazod is offline
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I can just picture some CEO peering down on this from his corner office saying "Hey, there's a visiting delegation from our idiot-ass power base."
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:47 AM   #10
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange View Post
[b]
WTF?! are you talking about??

Praying to avoid THIS is as Holy as it gets:

Uh, no.


Matthew 6:26
"Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not more value than they?"

"Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'.. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things" (Matthew 6:31-32).
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange View Post

WTF?! are you talking about??

Praying to avoid THIS is as Holy as it gets:
I think you mean righteous, not holy. Holy means "set apart." Anyway, there are plenty of people that live in vastly worse conditions than that right now, praying to save yourself from adverse conditions is not very righteous.
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
Uh, no.


Matthew 6:26
"Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not more value than they?"

"Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'.. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things" (Matthew 6:31-32).
Are you really that moronic*, or are you just pretending? Honest Christians don't believe God is going to descend as a dove and hand manna to starving people. God helps people through people.

You really must post the scripture wherein Jesus tells folks not to give alms to the poor because God will take care of them....

Then maybe someone will believe your ridiculously constricted view of what Christians believe.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*That's a bit harsh, but since the whole substance of this thread and the article it quotes is to depict a group of Christians as morons, I won't apologize.

Last edited by orange; 10-31-2008 at 10:02 AM..
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:57 AM   #13
Alphaman Alphaman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
Uh, no.


Matthew 6:26
"Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not more value than they?"

"Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'.. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things" (Matthew 6:31-32).
People of faith take everything to God in prayer. They believe that God's influence is available and necessary in every aspect.

You should have quoted the next part of that scripture:

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

These people were praying for God's intervention into the economic system of this country, not where their next meal or shirt was coming from. They recognized that this country's reliance has been upon Wall Street and the White House as opposed to an unwavering reliance upon God. They were praying for God's intervention into where we've taken our economic system. They were indeed acting upon a faith that Seeks FIRST the kingdom of God.
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Old 10-31-2008, 10:06 AM   #14
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Heh. Do we have a bunch of readers of the book of common prayer here or something? Here is my pastor's take on today's reading, which has already been used quite a bit in this thread:

Joseph Campbell, the great mythology scholar, coined the phrase "Follow your bliss." During an interview with Bill Moyers, Campbell quoted from the last line of Sinclair Lewis' "Babbit": "I have never done the thing that I wanted to do all my life." Of that line, Campbell said, "That is a man who never followed his bliss."

Jesus says the same thing today as he tells the disciples not to worry about money, power and prestige. Instead, follow your bliss. "Strive for God's kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well."

Frederick Beuchner said that "vocation happens when our deep gladness meets the world's deep need."

How many people have followed the path of Babbit? Doing what someone else expected you to do, striving for money or respect. Jesus tells his disciples, "Life is more than food, and the body more than clothing." Rather than living a life motivated by worry or anxiety, pleasing others or meeting artificial goals, follow your bliss. Let your deep gladness meet the world's deep need. Seek ye first the kingdom of God. And all these things will be given to you as well.
_______

A note about the reading from Revelation.

Maybe you remember when Pope John Paul II survived an assassination attempt. Suddenly "end-timers" had their answer. He was the Antichrist. They were reading our chapter in Revelation today. The dragon gives power, throne and authority to a beast with ten horns and seven heads. "One of its heads seemed to have received a death-blow, but its mortal wound had been healed." A-ha, said John Ankelburg and a host of other end-time dispensationalists. For them, the papacy had long been the primary candidate for the Antichrist, now it had happened.

You would think that with a two-thousand year history of being wrong the strange tradition of trying to historicize apocalyptic literature literally would have eventually become embarrassed and quit. Not so. Just the other day I saw Ronnie Floyd on TV identifying Magog as Putin's Russia, and I think he was saying that Gog had something to do with Islam. Stand in line Ronnie, with a centuries old tradition of abusing the Bible with trivial contemporary silliness.

John is writing about the Roman Empire. He is condemning the civic cult of emperor worship which began with Julius Caesar who was declared a deity by the Roman Senate after his death. Though he was wounded mortally, the beast of Caesar continued and all later emperors claimed to be sons of the divine Julius or of his great successor Augustus. The beast is the Roman Empire and its Emperor.

At the time of John's writing, there was no specific persecution of the church, though Rome ruled with an iron fist. The great threat that John speaks to is the threat of Roman life and culture, the Empire's lure of luxury and glamour and power.

Anyone who wants to make Revelation contemporary doesn't have to do too much imaginative stretching. You don't need to tag the pope or Russia. You need only look at the Empire-qualities of our own culture. You need only look at the temptations of wealth, power, sex, celebrity, and violence to see the beasts that John decried.

John condemned these temptations with vivid apocalyptic imagery. Jesus invited us to turn away from these lures with simple earthy imagery. "Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. ...Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. ...And do not keep striving for what you are to eat and what you are to drink, and do not keep worrying. For it is the nations of the world that strive after all these things..."

God knows our needs, and they are deeper than material needs. Follow your bliss, and you will find your life, Joseph Campbell would say. Let your vocation be the place where your deep gladness meets the world's deep need, Frederick Beuchner would say. Seek first God's kingdom, and all these things will be given you, Jesus tells us.

"Do not be afraid, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions, and give alms. Make purses for yourselves that do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

If your heart follows your bliss, there will be your treasure. If your heart follows treasure, you have sold your heart to the Empire.
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Old 10-31-2008, 10:08 AM   #15
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I think you mean righteous, not holy. Holy means "set apart." Anyway, there are plenty of people that live in vastly worse conditions than that right now, praying to save yourself from adverse conditions is not very righteous.
And as for this...

YOU are assuming they are praying to save "themselves."

I am assuming they are praying to save "others."

Perhaps if the story actually quoted the prayer, we would know the truth...

... of course then the author couldn't misrepresent the whole affair as "praying to the golden bull," so there's no doubt why the prayer wasn't quoted.
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