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Old 04-25-2009, 02:27 PM  
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Old 12-18-2009, 10:46 PM   #796
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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud View Post
Yes, we DO!

He's not a pass rusher. He's a TWO-DOWN player. His job is to absorb blockers.

If he doesn't absorb blockers and allows them to block downfield, he sucks ass.

If he absorbs blockers, the linebackers and safeties make the tackles.

Either way, no one will ever notice his presence unless he ****s up.
This.
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Old 12-18-2009, 10:53 PM   #797
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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud View Post
Yeah, but Man, take a step back and realize that you're talking about a 5-tech, 3-4 defensive end.

He could be the GREATEST 5-TECH, EVAR!

And no one would even know.

It's a ****ing stupid position to draft with the number 3 overall pick.
here in lies the falsehood of the position though.

The Dlinemen are as responsible for the success of the rest of the defense as the oline is responsible for the success of the rest of the offense.

Not saying he is Seymour, but as I have said a few times...RS wasnt supposed to go any higher than 12 in that draft (and that was the highest I could find him going out of any of the mocks, it was Kipers mock, there were some mocks with him going in the top of the second) and the Pats took him at 6 and I would say that he showed to be well worth the pick.

Very few football fans give credit to the olinemen for opening holes for the running back. All they say is how great the running back is and whatnot. Only the die hards respect the value the linemen gives to the team and give credit where it is due. As much of an impact an olinemen gives to the pass protection and the running game, the dlinemen make it so that all the linebacker has to do is beat a TE or BR to get to the QB and thus looking like the true diffencemaker. If the 5-tec wasnt effectively holding down two olinemen the linebacker would have to beat a tackle and a tightend or back to get to the qb. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

5-tecs will start to go higher and higher in coming years, the more the 3-4 becomes in vogue, the more teams will need protypical 5-tecs and those monsters dont exactly grow on trees. 3rd overall will ALWAYS be high for one, but 5-tecs taken in the top 10 will be a normal occurrence. It just happens that we had a top pick in a year where all the top talent had huge ?s and was at a time when our team desperately needed to come out of the pick with something, if a player had a significant chance at busting he was likely disqualified because of how talent laden we were and how much we need. I would rather have a very solid contributer five or six years from now, rather than a bust that is long gone like a lot of our recent picks.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:08 PM   #798
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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud View Post
Yes, we DO!

He's not a pass rusher. He's a TWO-DOWN player. His job is to absorb blockers.

If he doesn't absorb blockers and allows them to block downfield, he sucks ass.

If he absorbs blockers, the linebackers and safeties make the tackles.

Either way, no one will ever notice his presence unless he ****s up.
those are his responsibilities, not his ceiling.

Just because he is a two down player right now, doesnt mean he is permanently that. Maybe the team is using this year to evaluate its other dlinemen as well as him and sees that Gillberry is pretty talented as a pass rusher, thus helping us as a team.

Some 5-tecs have 2-3 sacks per year...some have 6-8 about every year. Some average 25 tackles and some average 45-60. Some simply absorb blockers and some "demand" the double team. Some are smart enough to slide down the line to stop screens and stretch plays, some dont ever learn to read it properly.

nobody knows what his ceiling is at this point because he wont reach it for a couple years.

If he doesnt come out next year like a much improved player, then we should seriously worry, but in his rookie year you cant expect much.

Its like Dorsey last year and this, he got pushed around constantly last year and this year is much much stouter.

Put a real Nose guard next to him and some real backers behind him and he will start to look a lot more like what we want to see I think.

time will tell
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:10 PM   #799
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Who Jackson? No but I don't think it's something to fret about. Like I said before if 5 tech was such a damn important position Canty and Olshansky combined make less than Jackson...think about that.

As of today we literally could have taken almost anyone else and been better off. **** Hakeem Nicks has been better, fathom that.
We were going to overpay no matter what.

Does anyone dispute that the Nose Tackle is the most important player on defense?

Then explain why they're paid less, in many cases, than the best 5-techniques?
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:12 PM   #800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief View Post
those are his responsibilities, not his ceiling.

Just because he is a two down player right now, doesnt mean he is permanently that. Maybe the team is using this year to evaluate its other dlinemen as well as him and sees that Gillberry is pretty talented as a pass rusher, thus helping us as a team.
Dude, your entire post is speculation.

In 2005, people around here saw Derrick Johnson as a complete defensive player. Someone who could push the Chiefs to the next level defensively, much like your hope for Tyson Jackson. Every one of those people ignored the scouting reports.

Tyson Jackson is what he is: He's a two down, 5 tech, 3-4 DE. He's not a pass rusher, he's not a dominant player. He's just a guy.

He'll NEVER justify his draft position.

EVER.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:13 PM   #801
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
We were going to overpay no matter what.

Does anyone dispute that the Nose Tackle is the most important player on defense?

Then explain why they're paid less, in many cases, than the best 5-techniques?
Where did Mecca mention money?

STOP ****ING TWISTING PEOPLE'S WORDS, MOTHER****ER!
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Dane is gonna have to leave again after we draft Geno.

He faces monstrous backlash.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:15 PM   #802
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Where did Mecca mention money?

STOP ****ING TWISTING PEOPLE'S WORDS, MOTHER****ER!
WTF. Are you ****ing serious?
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:16 PM   #803
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That post was about why you don't use top 5 picks on 5 tech ends.

You know what defensive ends are worth top 5 picks? The one's that get sacks. Personally I don't like the 3-4 and I'm not happy we're running it.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:21 PM   #804
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That post was about why you don't use top 5 picks on 5 tech ends.

You know what defensive ends are worth top 5 picks? The one's that get sacks. Personally I don't like the 3-4 and I'm not happy we're running it.
Mecca, I'm on the fence on a 3-4 too. Granted, the Broncos and Packers turned it around pretty fast, so I think there's something to it. I'm not disputing you there.

But you're talking about contract value justifying not taking a pick. And 5-techniques are paid as much and in many instances more than nose tackles. So I don't buy the argument that they're not important. Everyone knows that nose tackles are the most important piece ot a 3-4. If that's the case, then why are they often paid less than 5-techniques?

Draft value and salary value, in my opinion, will change a lot as more teams start running a 3-4. That's one reason I've debated whether I'm for/against the 3-4. But that doesn't mean you reach/overpay once you decide you're going to runi t.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:22 PM   #805
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
Mecca, I'm on the fence on a 3-4 too. Granted, the Broncos and Packers turned it around pretty fast, so I think there's something to it. I'm not disputing you there.

But you're talking about contract value justifying not taking a pick. And 5-techniques are paid as much and in many instances more than nose tackles. So I don't buy the argument that they're not important. Everyone knows that nose tackles are the most important piece ot a 3-4. If that's the case, then why are they often paid less than 5-techniques?

Draft value and salary value, in my opinion, will change a lot as more teams start running a 3-4. That's one reason I've debated whether I'm for/against the 3-4. But that doesn't mean you reach/overpay once you decide you're going to runi t.
Name a nose tackle that got a $28 million dollar signing bonus.

And for ****'S SAKE, could you get to the goddamn point without using 2,000 ****ing words in each post?

JFC.
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Dane is gonna have to leave again after we draft Geno.

He faces monstrous backlash.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:24 PM   #806
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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud View Post
Name a nose tackle that got a $28 million dollar signing bonus.

And for ****'S SAKE, could you get to the goddamn point without using 2,000 ****ing words in each post?

JFC.
You can't.

So you're going to tell me that because nose tackles dont' get paid, they're not important. I get it.

Because nose tackles dont' get paid, perhaps 3-4 defenses should stop worrying about it.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:24 PM   #807
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Dude, your entire post is speculation
Yet your view, that he will never be more than this or that, based on his, count... 1... rookie season alone isnt speculation?
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:25 PM   #808
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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud View Post
Name a nose tackle that got a $28 million dollar signing bonus.

And for ****'S SAKE, could you get to the goddamn point without using 2,000 ****ing words in each post?

JFC.
P.S. Mecca mentioned money

(insert curse word here)
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:29 PM   #809
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Do you guys ever get bored of this?

Just popping in to ask. (Not to judge.)

I'd just think at some point, you'd get worn the hell out.
Are you kidding?

Is it April yet? Is it?

Mery X-mas to ALL!
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:36 PM   #810
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Yet your view, that he will never be more than this or that, based on his, count... 1... rookie season alone isnt speculation?
Uh, NO.

It's based on the position he plays in this particular scheme.

Get it?
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He faces monstrous backlash.
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