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Old 06-15-2009, 12:20 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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To recognize or not recognize Iran, that is the question.

We all know where Iran is going at this point. The powers that be, as corrupt and fraudulent as they are, are taking hold in Iran against the will of much (if not most) of its population.

But we still need to work with Iran in the near future, especially if we are looking to improve Middle Eastern relations.

So what is our way forward with Iran? Your ideas are welcome.

Do we recognize the """""election""""" or not?

Do we continue to try to communicate with Iran without preconditions?

Do we have preconditions now?

etc etc. Thoughts welcome.
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Old 06-15-2009, 03:48 AM   #2
trndobrd trndobrd is offline
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The Supreme Council was in charge before the 'election', and they are still in charge after the 'election'. Whether or not the guy at the front desk changed, the management is the same. They are not any more corrupt or fraudlent today than they were last week, they have only been exposed. There isn't any reason to 'recognize' or 'not recognize' the election. Iran is a budding nuclear power and we will have to deal with whoever answers the phone.

That does not mean negotiations without preconditions, but there are plenty of ways to engage at lower levels.
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Old 06-15-2009, 06:36 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trndobrd View Post
That does not mean negotiations without preconditions, but there are plenty of ways to engage at lower levels.
negotiations with pre-conditions before we will talk to our enemies or hostile countries is asine. Just look at the results of Bush's policy. Then look at what other Republicans did? Nixon, Reagan, what did they accomplish by talking to our enemies without pre-conditions?
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 06-15-2009, 06:43 AM   #4
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trndobrd View Post
That does not mean negotiations without preconditions, but there are plenty of ways to engage at lower levels.
I have a question for you? Are you a neo con or a libertarian, because you sound hardly libertarian to me when it comes to FP?

Why engage in anything? Why not just leave them alone?
Why do you believe state propaganda?
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:04 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
We all know where Iran is going at this point. The powers that be, as corrupt and fraudulent as they are, are taking hold in Iran against the will of much (if not most) of its population.

But we still need to work with Iran in the near future, especially if we are looking to improve Middle Eastern relations.

So what is our way forward with Iran? Your ideas are welcome.

Do we recognize the """""election""""" or not?

Do we continue to try to communicate with Iran without preconditions?

Do we have preconditions now?

etc etc. Thoughts welcome.
All interesting questions that I don't think can be answered until we see how it all plays out.
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:14 PM   #6
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You let the Iranian people figure this out.

The US had sanctions and very little diplomatic action going on before the election and it should not change a thing at this point. We must see how this plays out and stay the FUGG out of it.
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:25 PM   #7
trndobrd trndobrd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I have a question for you? Are you a neo con or a libertarian, because you sound hardly libertarian to me when it comes to FP?

Why engage in anything? Why not just leave them alone?
Why do you believe state propaganda?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I have a question for you?
OK...shoot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Are you a neo con or a libertarian, because you sound hardly libertarian to me when it comes to FP?
I understand that everyone that does not fall within your absolute isolationism is a dreaded 'neocon'. You seem perfectly willing to assign labels, so I'll leave you to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Why engage in anything?
That's what countries do with one another. They engage in trade, diplomatic relations, treaty negotiations, bilateral agreements, telecom and air transport agreements. Everything from quiet behind the scenes talks to armed conflict.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Why not just leave them alone?
Iran is showing indications of both pursuing a nuclear program and sharing. Iran is directly attempting to destabilize Iraq with money, weapons and intelligence agents. It would be nice if they would stop doing those things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Why do you believe state propaganda?
You'll have to explain that one.
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:29 PM   #8
trndobrd trndobrd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
negotiations with pre-conditions before we will talk to our enemies or hostile countries is asine. Just look at the results of Bush's policy. Then look at what other Republicans did? Nixon, Reagan, what did they accomplish by talking to our enemies without pre-conditions?

Reagan's negotiations were, in the begining, part of the previously established SALT series of talks. Kissinger had made several trips to China before Nixon went.
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:52 PM   #9
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
negotiations with pre-conditions before we will talk to our enemies or hostile countries is asine. Just look at the results of Bush's policy. Then look at what other Republicans did? Nixon, Reagan, what did they accomplish by talking to our enemies without pre-conditions?
The fall of the Soviet Union and freedom brought to several countries who otherwise knew nothing but oppression and communisitc rule?
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Old 06-15-2009, 05:48 PM   #10
Calcountry Calcountry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
We all know where Iran is going at this point. The powers that be, as corrupt and fraudulent as they are, are taking hold in Iran against the will of much (if not most) of its population.

But we still need to work with Iran in the near future, especially if we are looking to improve Middle Eastern relations.

So what is our way forward with Iran? Your ideas are welcome.

Do we recognize the """""election""""" or not?

Do we continue to try to communicate with Iran without preconditions?

Do we have preconditions now?

etc etc. Thoughts welcome.
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Old 06-15-2009, 06:16 PM   #11
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trndobrd View Post
OK...shoot.



I understand that everyone that does not fall within your absolute isolationism is a dreaded 'neocon'. You seem perfectly willing to assign labels, so I'll leave you to it.
I am just asking what your affiliaton is. I know there's different kinds of libertarians but the basic belief that unites them is the non-aggression doctrine. Plus you tend to believe the state a lot.



Quote:
That's what countries do with one another. They engage in trade, diplomatic relations, treaty negotiations, bilateral agreements, telecom and air transport agreements. Everything from quiet behind the scenes talks to armed conflict.
The first six don't conflict with libertarianism unless the trade is managed by govt. People trade. The armed conflict part violates the non-aggression doctrine unless you are being attacked. That is the core essential of libertarianism. That and the state lies. Believing and trusting state's information is another.

Quote:
Iran is showing indications of both pursuing a nuclear program and sharing. Iran is directly attempting to destabilize Iraq with money, weapons and intelligence agents. It would be nice if they would stop doing those things.
So what? You're having those concerns are still not libertarianism including the fact that the state has lied to us before on such thing...like Iraq. And they have a legal right to pursue a nuclear program including per the treaty they signed. As for destabilizing Iraq I read they also support the current Shia govt there. But we put up a LOT of money to destabilize Iran too and have been in there using car bombs and kidnapping officials just as we began to invade Iraq. How does this comport with the non-agression doctrine? It does not.

Murray Rothbard was right there are too many self proclaimed libertarians who really aren't libertarians despite the different kinds that exist, when they don't act out a belief in the non-aggression doctrine and trust the state's information.



Quote:
You'll have to explain that one.
I did above. I just know that a libertarian is anti-state, anti-war and pro-free market.

You are believing the same folks ( they're in both parties) about Iran being a threat.


Iran's internal affairs are NONE of our business and no libertarian would be concerned with getting on a high horse and telling them how to conduct those affairs.

You may not be a NeoCon but you're no libertarian. Not according to the father of the movement Rothbard. At least I know I am not a libertarian.
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Old 06-15-2009, 06:43 PM   #12
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Interesting, we shouldn't give a shit about people and democracy in the ME when it's Bush and Iraq, but we do with Obama and Iran?
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
negotiations with pre-conditions before we will talk to our enemies or hostile countries is asine. Just look at the results of Bush's policy. Then look at what other Republicans did? Nixon, Reagan, what did they accomplish by talking to our enemies without pre-conditions?
Neither Nixon nor Reagan ever talked face to face with an adversary without plenty of preconditions. The Bush administration did plenty of talking with the Iranians without the preconditions for a face to face being met.
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:37 PM   #14
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This thread must be a joke.
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:18 PM   #15
Taco John Taco John is offline
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I think we should figure out our own problems, and let the Iranians figure out theirs.
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