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Old 06-15-2009, 11:09 PM  
Groves Groves is offline
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Actual Football Topic: Equally talented linemen

Ok, need some football knowledge.

About this time of year we start hearing about how our O and D lines are performing. The bugaboo to all this is that we only get to hear how they're performing against each other.

If the Oline handles the Dline, is that because the Oline is good? or the Dline stinks royally?

If the Dline is amazing, does that mean we have something, or that Kramer is using karate on children?

In soccer, any decent player should score on a penalty kick, it's not a reflection on the goalie, really.

In baseball, a decent hitter still strikes out a lot, no reflection.

So here's the question. If two linemen have equal talent, does the game basically favor one side of the ball or another?
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:14 PM   #2
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If they are equally talented then it depends who wants to win more and work harder to get there. It'll all deal with the players psyche if their athletic traits are equally matched
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:17 PM   #3
Groves Groves is offline
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So equally talented = Dlineman gets past 50% of the time?
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:18 PM   #4
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if we're talking truly equal, i'd say it favors the olinemen. the dl generally has to be either quicker or stronger than the ol to make an impact.
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:25 PM   #5
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:37 PM   #6
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:40 PM   #7
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At this time of year.

That's the key phrase. This time of year = no pads. Read the Haley q/a from today if you havn't already.

The otas/minicamps are more passing game then run game. Getting everyone lined up etc.

The OL/DL battles are more about techniques and such as far as footwork and hand placement. If on a pass protection an OT gets back to the proper depth and keeps his proper balence and wins the battle with his hands he has the upper edge. If the DE/OLB beats the OT with speed or a rip/swim move he has one the battle since the OL will either have to hold or let him by.

In this case with no pads I think the edge goes more to the aggressor or the DL. So i imagine in some cases the DL may not go full bore so they can get work in to the skilled position guys on both sides of the ball in the passing game.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:52 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booger View Post
At this time of year.

That's the key phrase. This time of year = no pads. Read the Haley q/a from today if you havn't already.

The otas/minicamps are more passing game then run game. Getting everyone lined up etc.

The OL/DL battles are more about techniques and such as far as footwork and hand placement. If on a pass protection an OT gets back to the proper depth and keeps his proper balence and wins the battle with his hands he has the upper edge. If the DE/OLB beats the OT with speed or a rip/swim move he has one the battle since the OL will either have to hold or let him by.

In this case with no pads I think the edge goes more to the aggressor or the DL. So i imagine in some cases the DL may not go full bore so they can get work in to the skilled position guys on both sides of the ball in the passing game.
Good post. I think what I take out of it is that it is June and hard to tell. When people get pads on they change. Some go harder, some suck. I'd think that an O-Lineman without pads ought to be able to stay in front of a D-Lineman unless he is a superspeed guy.

It's just hard to tell.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:42 AM   #9
Groves Groves is offline
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Yea, I'm sure the lack of pads alter it completely, but I'm curious about who the game favors as it's played for real.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groves View Post
Yea, I'm sure the lack of pads alter it completely, but I'm curious about who the game favors as it's played for real.
The game favors the more talented individual on either side of the ball, just like it does in every other game. It's why guys like Reggie White, Derrick Thomas, Lawrence Taylor, Anthony Munoz, Tony Boselli, et al, were able to dominate more often than not. It's why there is the draft, and why every team hopes that they get the next Thomas, Taylor, Ogden, etc., because having a guy like that helps a team on that side of the ball as such an individual requires specific game planning to mitigate or neutralize.

However, schemes/game plans go a long way in helping address individual weakness on either side of the line. (See Alex Gibbs as a perfect example of how a specific scheme can turn a group of mediocre offensive linemen into a dominant, cohesive unit.) As well, having experience with the other members of a specific line helps in terms of being able to more effectively play as a unit; e.g., the Chief's offensive line early in this decade played together, with almost everyone never missing a game. Same with Colts and Patriots offensive lines. That led to huge offensive numbers and better execution.

So, in summary, the NFL game is basically setup as a stale mate on both sides of the ball in terms of which is favored, with experience and individual talent prevailing.
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:17 AM   #11
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That's what intrasquad scrimmages during training camp are for, and preseason games. To see how you actually stack up against other teams.

The better your own team is, the better you'll get at your job but conversely the worse you'll look when you f**k up. For example, I'm sure Brady and Moss will be toasting a lot of their own DBs in training camp and making them look bad, but if one of those same DBs can pick off a pass he'll feel like friggin' gold. So it works both ways.
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:40 AM   #12
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Advantage offense.

Assuming completely equal talent, the edge would have to go to the man who knows the play.

It's really a very interesting question, though. The NFL is a "copycat" league, as we know. So, everybody is always looking for that little edge that will give them the advantage in spite of the talent on the other side of the ball. When something seems to be working for Team A, Teams Other Letters follow suit pretty quickly. Over time, it all evens out again but the lasting result is greater and greater complexity in schemes, plays, and alignments. Fans can use these to figure out how various coaches feel about their line talent. When I see a defense using a ton of stunts and twists, for example, I assume they feel they're mismatched man-on-man.

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Old 06-16-2009, 10:11 AM   #13
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This time of year = no contact = you can't tell a damn thing.

DL always have the advantage. An OL can shut down a DE for 48 of 50 snaps a game and still have a "bad game" if those 2 plays result in a sack.
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Old 06-16-2009, 10:21 AM   #14
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These are great answers.

I'm always looking for insights into a coach's mind.

Surely he knows that one side winning could be a result of superior talent or superior suckage and he needs to be able to tell the difference.

That's why the 1s go against the 1s, huh.
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Old 06-16-2009, 10:30 AM   #15
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To refine the argument...

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