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Old 09-12-2009, 09:50 AM  
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It's time for large # of troops to GTFO of Afghanistan.

It's a no win situation for us. Brave Americans are fighting a war in which there is no hope of winning. In this type of war there will never be a "winner". All we are doing is providing easy targets for Taliban to kill.

We can't just ignore military history there and say our effort will be different.

We went into Afganistan with 1,300 troops. When the Taliban fell we had 2.500 troops on the ground. We now have 60,000 troops on the ground and the Taliban control 40-70% of the country's territory.

The new commander in Afghanistan says he sees no evidence of a large Al-Quaeda presense in Afghanistan. That is and will always be the only reason for us to be in Afghanistan. The only reason we are there in the first place. The only reason to sacrifice American lives.

I think we should hunt down and kill every single member of Al=Quaeda, no matter where they are hiding.

We shouldn't be sacrificing American lives to nation build in Afghanistan. Yeah, they want to go back to the 12th century but why should we sacrifice American lives to keep that from happening? Not worth it.

But if we leave the Taliban will take over swiftly and then provide a safe -haven for Al-Quaeda? We don't let that happen. We put cruise millsle up their azz. We send out the drones. We use special forces to take them out.

Edited:

I'm convinced that this is the right decision for these reasons.
  • We can't nation build in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be using our resources and sacrificing our troops to help them. Thats not why we are there. $300 billion spent so far. 900 brave Americans dead. Entering it's 9th year. Just when will it be enough?
  • The argument that the Taliban and Al-Quaeda will just come back may be true but there are several problems with that. Al-Quaeda can be anywhere in the world. So we keep them out of Afghanistan, they show up in Pakistan, Somalia, where ever. I read there is only 100 Al-Quaeda operatives in Afghanistan. There are probably more than that in the USA. If we keep them out of Afghanistan. they will just go some other place. We need a 21st century approach. We won't be able to defeat Al-Quaeda with conventional weapons and strategy. We can always go back in with surgical strikes to take out prime targets and more large scale attacks to prevent Al-Quaeda from establishing bases again. We can't let 100,000 Americans become easy to reach targets for Al-Quaeda.
  • The government is corrupt beyond repair. For those who want to nation build, how can you with a totally corrupt government that the people don't trust? Nation building won't work no matter how many troops or how much money you throw at the problem with a corrupt government distrusted by the people.
  • Afghanistan has no resources. What exactly are they going to make money at, build their country with? It would be a transfer of wealth from us to them.
  • The population outside of Kabul is run by drug overlords. The majority of the population works in the poppy fields because its the only way they can feed their family. How are we going to change that? Provide jobs for those people to feed their families? A lot of those poppy field profits are going right to the Taliban. Just how are you going to end this cycle without a major infusion of American money. Again, a transfer of wealth.

Last edited by BigRedChief; 10-27-2009 at 02:55 PM..
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:38 AM   #151
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Common sense says that we should just get the hell out of dodge, this cannot be won, short of turning the mountains to glass.

Our footprint on the ground is fueling the insurgencies simply by giving them something to fight. If we were not there, they would be fighting between themselves for the poppy profits.

This sucks for the Afghan people as a whole, but its way it's been for hundreds of years, and they don't seem to mind the status quo, so why should we.

There has never been peace in the region and there will never be peace in the region, pessimistic yes, but it is what it is.
I heard the same think about Iraq in early 2006.

Personally, I think it's a stronger argument in this case, but Iraq is a cautionary tale against accepting conventional wisdom just because everyone else is.
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Old 11-15-2009, 09:15 AM   #152
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We commit 40K troops to Afghanistan we are committing an additional $40 billion to Afghanistan on top of the Billions already being spent.

WTF are we transferring our wealth to Afghanistan?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/us...ef=todayspaper

High Costs Weigh on Troop Debate for Afghan War
By CHRISTOPHER DREW
While President Obama’s decision about sending more troops to Afghanistan is primarily a military one, it also has substantial budget implications that are adding pressure to limit the commitment, senior administration officials say.
The latest internal government estimates place the cost of adding 40,000 American troops and sharply expanding the Afghan security forces, as favored by Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, the top American and allied commander in Afghanistan, at $40 billion to $54 billion a year, the officials said.
Even if fewer troops are sent, or their mission is modified, the rough formula used by the White House, of about $1 million per soldier a year, appears almost constant.
So even if Mr. Obama opts for a lower troop commitment, Afghanistan’s new costs could wash out the projected $26 billion expected to be saved in 2010 from withdrawing troops from Iraq. And the overall military budget could rise to as much as $734 billion, or 10 percent more than the peak of $667 billion under the Bush administration.
Such an escalation in military spending would be a politically volatile issue for Mr. Obama at a time when the government budget deficit is soaring, the economy is weak and he is trying to pass a costly health care plan.
Senior members of the House Appropriations Committee have already expressed reservations about the potential long-term costs of expanding the war in Afghanistan. And Mr. Obama could find it difficult to win approval for the additional spending in Congress, where he would have to depend on Republicans to counter defections from liberal Democrats.
One senior administration official, who requested anonymity in order to discuss the details of confidential deliberations, said these concerns had added to the president’s insistence at a White House meeting on Wednesday that each military option include the quickest possible exit strategy.
“The president focused a lot on ensuring that we were asking the difficult questions about getting to an end game here,” the official said. “He knows we cannot sustain this indefinitely.”
Sending fewer troops would lower the costs but would also place limitations on the buildup strategy. Sending 30,000 more troops, for example, would cost $25 billion to $30 billion a year while limiting how widely American forces could range. Deploying 20,000 troops would cost about $21 billion annually but would expand mainly the training of Afghans, the officials said.
The estimated $1 million a year it costs per soldier is higher than the $390,000 congressional researchers estimated in 2006.
Military analysts said the increase reflects a surge in costs for mine-resistant troop carriers and surveillance equipment that would apply to troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan. But some costs are unique to Afghanistan, where it can cost as much as $400 a gallon to deliver fuel to the troops through mountainous terrain.
Some administration estimates suggest it could also cost up to $50 billion over five years to more than double the size of the Afghan army and police force, to a total of 400,000. That includes recruiting, training and equipment.
At a stop at a military base in Alaska on Thursday, Mr. Obama told a gathering of soldiers that he would not risk more lives “unless it is necessary to America’s vital interests.” He added during his visit to Tokyo on Friday that he wanted to avoid taking any step that could be seen as an “open-ended commitment.”
The administration said Friday that it planned to cut up to 5 percent at domestic agencies in fiscal 2011 as part of an effort to reduce the federal budget deficit, which rose to $1.4 trillion with the economic stimulus and financial bailouts.
Several leading Republicans have criticized Mr. Obama’s willingness to spend more freely on domestic programs and urged him to provide General McChrystal with the resources he is seeking in Afghanistan.
“Keeping our country safe: Isn’t that the first job of government?” said Senator Christopher S. Bond, a Republican from Missouri and the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. “If we have just a minimalist counterterrorism strategy, the Taliban will come back over the mountains from Pakistan, and they will be followed by their co-conspirators from the Al Qaeda organization.”
Cost is far from the only concern about escalating the war. The debate intensified last week amid disclosures that the United States ambassador to Afghanistan, Karl W. Eikenberry, had sent cables to Washington expressing his reservations about deploying additional troops, citing weak Afghan leadership and widening corruption.
That kind of doubt could also make some in Congress hesitant to support an expansion of the war, especially with the midterm elections coming next year.
Representative David R. Obey, a Democrat from Wisconsin who heads the House Appropriations Committee, said recently that sending more troops to Afghanistan could drain the Treasury and “devour virtually any other priorities that the president or anyone in Congress had.”
Representative John Murtha, Democrat of Pennsylvania and chairman of a subcommittee on defense appropriations, said in an interview that because of concerns about President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, he thought a majority of the 258 Democrats in the House would vote against any bill to pay for more troops. “A month ago, I would have said 60 to 70,” he said.
“Can you pass one?” Mr. Murtha said. “It depends on the Republicans.”
Mr. Murtha said he opposed sending more troops, though he would support any decision Mr. Obama made. He said he was concerned that even without a supplemental bill, total spending on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars would surge past $1 trillion next year, which could hamper the economy for years to come.
Others said some Republicans could find it hard to justify a yes vote on troops after criticizing Mr. Obama for his spending. Some liberal Democrats said voters who had been drawn to Mr. Obama for his early opposition to the Iraq war could become disenchanted if he approved a major expansion in Afghanistan.
“In the times we’re in right now, I just totally believe that the public that elected President Obama really wants to see something different,” said Representative Lynn Woolsey, Democrat of California.
During the presidential campaign, Mr. Obama was careful to say that he would not cut military spending while the nation was engaged in two wars. He also said it was important to shore up the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan. And shortly after he took office, he approved sending an additional 21,000 soldiers there, bringing the total American force to 68,000.
Still, many of his supporters assumed that his pledges to withdraw from Iraq, and to rein in the cost overruns on high-tech weapons programs, would still produce significant savings.
But even though Mr. Obama has won battles to cancel the F-22 fighter plane and other advanced programs, the immediate savings have been offset by increased spending on the surveillance drones and mine-resistant vehicles needed in the field now.
And he recently signed a $680 billion military authorization bill for fiscal 2010 that represented a 2.7 percent increase over the 2009 spending level and a 1.9 percent increase over President Bush’s peak budget in fiscal 2008.
The administration has projected that spending on Iraq would drop by $25.8 billion in fiscal 2010, to $60.8 billion, as most of the troops withdraw.
It also expected spending on the Afghanistan war to increase by $18.5 billion in fiscal 2010, to $65.4 billion, for a net savings on the two wars of $7.3 billion, if no more troops were added.
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:42 PM   #153
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:51 AM   #154
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Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
This new/old boss had better pay for this war. You want to escalate and do nation building, transfer our wealth to Afghanistan, pay for it with new taxes or preferably, cuts in spending. But, either way pay for it, don't just spend it with borrowed chinese money like Bush did.
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:59 AM   #155
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This new/old boss had better pay for this war. You want to escalate and do nation building, transfer our wealth to Afghanistan, pay for it with new taxes or preferably, cuts in spending. But, either way pay for it, don't just spend it with borrowed chinese money like Bush did.
It's a little late to be quibbling about the pittance that was GWBush borrowing compared to the mountain of debt that your guy is racking up (with or without the expense of an ongoing Afghanistan campaign).

Nobody who voted for Barack Obama has any room to criticize Bush spending. It was clear well before the election that Obama was going to dramatically INCREASE spending, not usher in an era of fiscal responsibility.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:53 AM   #156
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It's a little late to be quibbling about the pittance that was GWBush borrowing compared to the mountain of debt that your guy is racking up (with or without the expense of an ongoing Afghanistan campaign).

Nobody who voted for Barack Obama has any room to criticize Bush spending. It was clear well before the election that Obama was going to dramatically INCREASE spending, not usher in an era of fiscal responsibility.
not so fast ole wise one. Just because everyone in Washington is a big spender these days doesn't mean that they are exempt from criticism. And you deflected my point. Which is, this(whatever is decided) needs to be paid for with cuts in spending.
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:22 PM   #157
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not so fast ole wise one. Just because everyone in Washington is a big spender these days doesn't mean that they are exempt from criticism. And you deflected my point. Which is, this(whatever is decided) needs to be paid for with cuts in spending.
Obama is the kind of unprecedented big spender that makes previous big spenders seem like small spenders by comparison. Anyone who voted for Obama but points to Bush spending without acknowledging that Bush was a pennypincher by comparison to Obama needs to be called out, IMO.
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:32 PM   #158
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Obama is the kind of unprecedented big spender that makes previous big spenders seem like small spenders by comparison. Anyone who voted for Obama but points to Bush spending without acknowledging that Bush was a pennypincher by comparison to Obama needs to be called out, IMO.
yeah yeah. sorry it doesn't work that way. This isn't a bibical conversation here. He who without sin cast the first stone etc.

Of course Obama is a big spender. But, he said he would be a big spender during the campaign. Whereas Bush said and campaigned as a finacial conservative.
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:49 PM   #159
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yeah yeah. sorry it doesn't work that way. This isn't a bibical conversation here. He who without sin cast the first stone etc.

Of course Obama is a big spender. But, he said he would be a big spender during the campaign. Whereas Bush said and campaigned as a finacial conservative.
All the more reason why Obama voters have no standing to complain about Bush spending.
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Old 11-25-2009, 08:47 AM   #160
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Obama to announce new Afghanistan stategy to a nation TV audience from West Point on Tuesday.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...-from-west-pt/

Obama to Address Nation From West Pt.

President Obama will address the nation on his Afghanistan strategy at 8 p.m. on Tuesday from the United States Military Academy at West Point.
Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, offered those details in his morning gaggle on Wednesday. He said that much of the recent discussion among advisers at the White House revolved around an exit strategy.
“We are in Year Nine in Afghanistan,” Mr. Gibbs said. “We are not going to be there another eight or nine years.”
Mr. Gibbs said Mr. Obama has not informed him yet of his final decision.
See related article on the president’s deliberations for the war.
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:05 AM   #161
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If the reports are true of 34K additional troops that puts Obama's escalation of the troop levels since he took office at 54,000 more Americans in harms way.
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:05 AM   #162
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If the reports are true of 34K additional troops that puts Obama's escalation of the troop levels since he took office at 54,000 more Americans in harms way.
Half-measures and delayed decisions are not the most encouraging characteristics for a war policy. Let's hope it's not too little, too late.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:59 AM   #163
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Half-measures and delayed decisions are not the most encouraging characteristics for a war policy. Let's hope it's not too little, too late.
Already getting those excuses lined up? Peteraus gave him proposal for the surge in Iraq 4 months before Bush announced it. So was Bush ditheringt?
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 11-25-2009, 02:05 PM   #164
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Already getting those excuses lined up? Peteraus gave him proposal for the surge in Iraq 4 months before Bush announced it. So was Bush ditheringt?
No, as a matter of fact, he wasn't. The proof is in the pudding. If Obama's efforts pan out as well as Bush's did, he'll be vindicated. If not, his dithering will be fair game for blame. My suspicion is that Obama isn't half the wartime CiC that his predecessor was, though so I'm not holding my breath expecting a positive outcome. He's looking for a political way out not success of the mission.
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:30 PM   #165
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JFC people on this board are f...ing clueless. Afghanistan is a winnable war? In what century? Winnable how? Give me some metric that will say that American forces are no longer needed and they are now a democratic society.

Here's a hint....They will never be a democratic society. Islam is not compatible will democratic values. Hence the Theocracy that exists. Oh, they go along with the mirage of trying to convert to a democracy so that they can extort billions of dollars from the U.S. so politicians can have a talking point for their re-election campaigns, but it will NEVER be a democracy.

Once the powers that be come to this OBVIOUS recognition, we can pull out of this war.

Terrorists are not unified countries. There is no objective that is achievable by this military in fighting them. NONE. Oh sure, you can capture one here and there and control certain areas, but the last time I looked, we can't afford that much longer.

Let me repeat that...

WE CAN"T AFFORD TO BE THE WORLD'S POLICEMAN.

The last time I looked, a another country didn't come liberate the US from the tyranny of the King George. Citizens of countries have to WANT democracy, because as we've seen here recently, it's damn hard keeping the powers that be from snagging all the damn control that they can.

It is a ridiculous premise, and to borrow an increasingly overused phrase, a false choice to think that winning in Afghanistan is achievable. How do I know this? Because the goal is impossible.
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