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Old 02-12-2010, 10:14 AM  
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Ron Paul Deceived. BucEyedPea Believed. (The Fabricated Reagan Quote)

I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but I wanted to create a separate thread where BucEyedPea can feel free to admit that Ron Paul was wrong or argue endlessly with me about it if she's still in denial without hijacking another thread.

In July of 2006, Ron Paul got up in front of the House of Representatives to speak in opposition to a resolution condemning Hezbollah's attack against Israel. In his statement, he quoted Ronald Reagan to bolster his case. I should say he "mis-quoted" Reagan though, because as it turns out the quote was FABRICATED.

Since then, BucEyedPea has repeatedly referenced that quote here on the pages of ChiefsPlanet. At last count, I've seen her reference it no less than 16 times. What's with these appeasement conservatives and their need to pretend that Ronald Reagan would have approved of their misguided, neo-isolationist message?

See my next two posts for the details.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:46 AM   #151
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Operation Cyclone was the very definition of being penny wise and pound foolish.

Yes, by aiding the mujahadeen we were able to help draw the Soviets into a protracted war. But their losses were not any more crippling than the ones that we are suffering in Iraq right now.

Over 10 years of occupation, the Soviets lost around 13,000 men. Our casualty rates in Iraq are lower, but not disproportionately so.

Furthermore, the main problem w/ OC was that we explicitly funded the most militant groups, and ignored the more moderate fighters that later became the Northern Alliance--guys like Ahmad Shah Massoud (who we should have installed as a temporary head of state after the Soviets left, BTW).

Additionally, because we were so laissez-faire in our distribution of aid to the area, we allowed scumbags in Peshawar and Waziristan to distribute aid as they saw fit, rather than giving it to the individuals who were the most deserving.

In fact, Massoud even mentioned that himself when interviewed by CNN as part of their "Cold War" documentary series.

Then, having accomplished our short term goal, we pulled out, leaving a power vacuum that served as a breeding ground, as well as a site of accretion for the worst kind of Islamists. Of course, with a haven fully installed, the origins of Al Qaeda were allowed to ferment and disseminate their information and training--training which was largely provided to them by the CIA.
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Old 02-18-2010, 08:45 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
You know, for all the "we're going to nail Buc to a wall on the technicality of this quote," Ronald Regan's retreat from Lebanon speaks louder than any quote he could have possibly gave. Even if that faux quote isn't 100 taken in context, it doesn't change the fact that Reagan pulled up stakes and left.
Technicality? You've got to be kidding me. The Ron Paul article on Lew Rockwell has a full blown FABRICATED quote in it. Take away the part of the quote that Reagan NEVER said/wrote and it loses all of it's persuasiveness in terms of Ron Paul's duck-and-cover foreign policy.

Go back and read the chapter in Reagan's autobiography to understand where the other deceptively arranged bits and pieces of the quote came from and you'll understand that Reagan regretted that particular mission, not America's entire involvement in the middle east. He put the marines in a position where they were vulnerable without removing the leash to let them aggressively create their own safety. He changed his mind about sending marines for that particular non-warfare role, he didn't reject involvement in the region, including military and foreign aid involvement, altogether.

As for BucEyedPea, I understand she relied (heavily) on a quote that she didn't realize was false at the time. That's why the title of this thread was "Ron Paul Deceived. BucEyedPea Believed." instead of "BucEyedPea Lied after Ronald Reagan Died." It will be enough for me if she admits that the quote on the Rockwell site is false and if she doesn't try to pull what you're trying to pull here, i.e. arguing that it makes no difference wrt how likely it is that Reagan would approve of Ron Paul's foreign policy.
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Last edited by patteeu; 02-18-2010 at 08:52 AM..
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:03 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Or do you argue that Communism is a viable and efficient economic system, capable of competing with capitalism, and that the USSR was somehow going to win the Cold War?
I would argue that we could have lost the Cold War whether, all else being equal, communism is a viable and efficient economic system capable of competing with capitalism over the long haul or not. It's not like we had a gentlemanly competetion where we pitted their economic system against ours in the best possible conditions for each. We were actively trying to defeat each other in various ways along the way and both countries made both good and bad decisions along the way. We had a fundamental advantage, imo, but it didn't make the outcome inevitable. If nothing else, a nuclear exchange would have made us losers even if it didn't make them winners and there's nothing that communism or capitalism would have had to say about it.
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:20 AM   #154
Jenson71 Jenson71 is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
Hell, I don't know. I probably listened to over 150 hours of Ron Paul speeches and audio during the campaign. He got challenged on where he parts ways with Reagan all the time.
Any kind of source I could check out would be great, thanks. I googled "ron paul ronald reagan" and looked through a few pages with no success.
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:43 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Technicality? You've got to be kidding me. The Ron Paul article on Lew Rockwell has a full blown FABRICATED quote in it. Take away the part of the quote that Reagan NEVER said/wrote and it loses all of it's persuasiveness in terms of Ron Paul's duck-and-cover foreign policy.

Go back and read the chapter in Reagan's autobiography to understand where the other deceptively arranged bits and pieces of the quote came from and you'll understand that Reagan regretted that particular mission, not America's entire involvement in the middle east. He put the marines in a position where they were vulnerable without removing the leash to let them aggressively create their own safety. He changed his mind about sending marines for that particular non-warfare role, he didn't reject involvement in the region, including military and foreign aid involvement, altogether.

As for BucEyedPea, I understand she relied (heavily) on a quote that she didn't realize was false at the time. That's why the title of this thread was "Ron Paul Deceived. BucEyedPea Believed." instead of "BucEyedPea Lied after Ronald Reagan Died." It will be enough for me if she admits that the quote on the Rockwell site is false and if she doesn't try to pull what you're trying to pull here, i.e. arguing that it makes no difference wrt how likely it is that Reagan would approve of Ron Paul's foreign policy.
There's no way to obfuscate what you posted in the first few posts. It's an out-and-out fabrication.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:00 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Technicality? You've got to be kidding me. The Ron Paul article on Lew Rockwell has a full blown FABRICATED quote in it. Take away the part of the quote that Reagan NEVER said/wrote and it loses all of it's persuasiveness in terms of Ron Paul's duck-and-cover foreign policy.

I'm not yet convinced that the final quote can't be found somewhere. I'd be suprised to learn that Ron Paul made it up.



Quote:
Go back and read the chapter in Reagan's autobiography to understand where the other deceptively arranged bits and pieces of the quote came from and you'll understand that Reagan regretted that particular mission, not America's entire involvement in the middle east.
I don't currently have the book, but have added it to my bucket list.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:32 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
I'm not yet convinced that the final quote can't be found somewhere. I'd be suprised to learn that Ron Paul made it up.
I was surprised too. That's why I went to the library to get the actual book to check it out even after failing to find it in the google books version.

I described my theory about how this might have happened earlier in the thread. It doesn't completely absolve Ron Paul of responsibility for the falsehood, but it softens the charge a bit from intentional fabrication to careless transcription (the original use of the quote was in a speech on the floor of the House).
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:45 PM
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Old 02-18-2010, 01:27 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
the original use of the quote was in a speech at least two speeches on the floor of the House
In a remarkable October 7 (2005) speech delivered on the House floor, Representative Ron Paul, a maverick Republican from Texas who has long been critical of Bush's misguided approach to fighting terrorism, invoked Reagan's legacy as part of a call for withdrawal...

"We should heed the words of Ronald Reagan about his experience with a needless and mistaken military occupation of Lebanon. Sending troops into Lebanon seemed like a good idea in 1983, but in 1990 President Reagan said this in his memoirs: "…we did not appreciate fully enough the depth of the hatred and complexity of the problems that made the Middle East such a jungle… In the weeks immediately after the bombing, I believed the last thing we should do was turn tail and leave… yet, the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics forced us to rethink our policy there.""


http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/30573
Note that the commenter parsed it right that time.

If there's any intentional misleading going on, my money is on LewRockwell.com as the culprit.
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:07 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange View Post
In a remarkable October 7 (2005) speech delivered on the House floor, Representative Ron Paul, a maverick Republican from Texas who has long been critical of Bush's misguided approach to fighting terrorism, invoked Reagan's legacy as part of a call for withdrawal...

"We should heed the words of Ronald Reagan about his experience with a needless and mistaken military occupation of Lebanon. Sending troops into Lebanon seemed like a good idea in 1983, but in 1990 President Reagan said this in his memoirs: "…we did not appreciate fully enough the depth of the hatred and complexity of the problems that made the Middle East such a jungle… In the weeks immediately after the bombing, I believed the last thing we should do was turn tail and leave… yet, the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics forced us to rethink our policy there.""


http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/30573
Note that the commenter parsed it right that time.

If there's any intentional misleading going on, my money is on LewRockwell.com as the culprit.
Lew Rockwell mislead? Blasphemy! Lew Rockwell is a true conservative and his philosophy makes him incorruptable. You people just don't understand. Once you adopt a true conservative policy, your free will can no longer choose a wrong path!
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:31 PM   #160
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Old 02-20-2010, 06:32 PM   #161
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Old 02-20-2010, 07:12 PM   #162
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Old 02-20-2010, 09:47 PM   #163
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Old 02-21-2010, 04:54 PM   #164
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:31 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
So you both got nothing. Now I know I've won the argument.
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