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Old 08-02-2010, 06:59 PM  
healthpellets healthpellets is offline
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Net Neutrality: Let's have a discussion

Taco John brought us THIS THREAD earlier today, and I don't want clutter a 5th Amendment thread with a general discussion.

So let's discuss net neutrality.

What is it?

Quote:
When dealing with any form of network, be it telephone service, cable television or the Internet, there is often a business philosophy called network neutrality at work. When dealing specifically with Internet issues, the term is usually shortened to net neutrality, but the basic principles are still the same. Net neutrality refers to the non-discriminatory nature of essential Internet components such as servers, ISPs and transmission lines. In the eyes of an idealized Internet, all users have the right to send and receive packets of information equally. The principle of net neutrality makes this possible. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-net-neutrality.htm
Basically, it comes down to one evil or the other. On one hand, we have the government step in to regulate and "enforce" net neutrality via the FCC. While the FCC currently doesn't have the authority to do so, they are working with legislators to introduce a bill to expand their authority.

On the other hand, we have the current situation which is where the Telecommunications industry has control of the product they supply, and they theoretically allow open and unfettered access to all web traffic.

So far, we've had a few instances of Telcos shaping traffic of heavy bit torrent users, which was only found out after subscribers became suspicious and investigated it for themselves. Most ISPs, in their user agreements, state their right to limit access or shape traffic should they deem your use derogatory to their network.

So where do you come down on this? Government involvement or status quo?

IMO, thus far we're talking about solving yet to be seen problem with preemptive government intervention. While i'm not a fan of the theoretical restrictions that could be placed on internet traffic by ISPs, it thus far seems to be the lesser of two evils for a couple reasons. 1) most people have at least two choices for internet access (yes, i realize that not everyone does, even in metropolitan areas), and that number should continue to expand with technological development; 2) there are a couple of ways to get to sites should your ISP decide that you don't need to visit those sites (TOR and Haystack are a couple currently available options).

Discuss.
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Old 04-23-2014, 06:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
As far as why they aren't treated as utilities, they tried and the courts said they couldn't.
crap. thanks for the info.
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
I have yet to understand why any tech savvy person would be against net neutraility.
I think you'd have to not be tech savvy to support it.
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
I think you'd have to not be tech savvy to support it.
Do you know anybody that hates the Internet as it is now and would rather start having their favorite websites\services throttled because they don't pay the premium price?
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:38 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
"Hey you guys stuck your neck out and invested in internet infrastructure and provided a service that people wanted. We think you've made enough money on it now, though. We're going to go ahead and take it from you, thanks."


What a bad idea.
Not sure if serious. Though I know it's you so a serious answer is possible.
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:42 PM   #20
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This is a VERY tough issue for a tech person like myself. We tend to be anarchists when it comes to anything that threatens to "control" the internet. The problem is... you are looking at two competing "evils" in big business and govt.

In a perfect world you'd have a minimal set of laws that are there solely to ensure that there is always room for more competition in the market. That would act as a check on big business abuses. I'm not at all sure how this would work though because you are dealing with so many different govt entities from the Federal all the way down to the municipal level.
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:43 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
I have yet to understand why any tech savvy person would be against net neutraility.

As far as why they aren't treated as utilities, they tried and the courts said they couldn't.
I think net neutrality is an awesome model for the Internet and should continue indefinitely. IF the telcos / ISPs change packet shaping then I think the government needs to regulate the ISPs to the point they no longer do that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
Not sure if serious. Though I know it's you so a serious answer is possible.
As someone who knows this side of the industry as well as anyone here, what is your feeling on the issue?
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:46 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
I think net neutrality is an awesome model for the Internet and should continue indefinitely. IF the telcos / ISPs change packet shaping then I think the government needs to regulate the ISPs to the point they no longer do that.
At that point you might as well just consider the internet to be a public infrastructure that is no different from Interstate highways. I can certainly see a justification for that but I'm not sure its a good idea.
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:52 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
This is a VERY tough issue for a tech person like myself. We tend to be anarchists when it comes to anything that threatens to "control" the internet. The problem is... you are looking at two competing "evils" in big business and govt.

In a perfect world you'd have a minimal set of laws that are there solely to ensure that there is always room for more competition in the market. That would act as a check on big business abuses. I'm not at all sure how this would work though because you are dealing with so many different govt entities from the Federal all the way down to the municipal level.
yep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
I think net neutrality is an awesome model for the Internet and should continue indefinitely. IF the telcos / ISPs change packet shaping then I think the government needs to regulate the ISPs to the point they no longer do that.
yep. I am reading they are going to create "premium lanes" so the big companies like Amazon can pay a higher price to send their traffic faster. Of course there is only so much bandwidth so the non-premium traffic will be throttled
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
Do you know anybody that hates the Internet as it is now and would rather start having their favorite websites\services throttled because they don't pay the premium price?
Yup, it confuses me greatly. Their internet service isn't anything without the services provided by amazon, google, yahoo, netflix... And nobody would pay for their faster services if they were not using these particular services, but then they complain that people are using it and need to be paid from both sides. Even though though netflix, google, etc already pay for their connection to the internet. My general theory is that if you want it from both ways, create your own version of the Internet and see how that works out for you.

I'm wondering how Taco will feel when every ISP tells him to pay a $20 a month fee to allow access to his site to have traffic to his site.

And Satallite, MAO, wow Taco. If you were technical at all you would know how slow that is.
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Old 04-23-2014, 07:56 PM   #26
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I thought this sums it up perfectly.

Quote:
The Internet has acted as a great equalizer, removing many of the barriers that people without great wealth face when trying to make opportunities. Now we're putting those barriers back in place, by making it so that established players can use their wealth to hold a privileged position within the market.

This can only serve to benefit the established players at the cost of consumers and new entrants.
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Old 04-23-2014, 08:01 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by morphius View Post
Yup, it confuses me greatly. Their internet service isn't anything without the services provided by amazon, google, yahoo, netflix... And nobody would pay for their faster services if they were not using these particular services, but then they complain that people are using it and need to be paid from both sides. Even though though netflix, google, etc already pay for their connection to the internet. My general theory is that if you want it from both ways, create your own version of the Internet and see how that works out for you.

I'm wondering how Taco will feel when every ISP tells him to pay a $20 a month fee to allow access to his site to have traffic to his site.

And Satallite, MAO, wow Taco. If you were technical at all you would know how slow that is.
Couldn't agree more. Great post morphius.
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Old 04-23-2014, 08:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
I'm wondering how Taco will feel when every ISP tells him to pay a $20 a month fee to allow access to his site to have traffic to his site.
I'll feel like waking up and exiting the fantasy nightmare that will never happen.


Quote:
And Satallite, MAO, wow Taco. If you were technical at all you would know how slow that is.
When the Internet started, we were on 14.4 baud. It didn't stay like that forever. You'd be a fool to think that Satellite internet is at it's zenith.

I WELCOME cable providers to jerk with their business models. When they start doing stuff like that, smart people get to work and make these folks irrelevant.

Cable internet is not the end all be all of internet connection. We're still in the infancy of all of this. The last thing I want to see happen is for the government to stifle innovation - such as what Google Fiber is doing - by demonstrating that they're willing to regulatory capture these industries and make innovation in this realm unattractive.
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Old 04-23-2014, 08:46 PM   #29
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At that point you might as well just consider the internet to be a public infrastructure that is no different from Interstate highways. I can certainly see a justification for that but I'm not sure its a good idea.
Just looking at how well the fed and state governments take care of our current infrastructure.


It would be a very bad idea. Not to mention the government getting to decide what net neutrality is and being able to change that definition is ripe for cronyism and corruption.

Much better to have it run by business, at least with business if I don't like their policies I can choose someone else.
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Old 04-24-2014, 06:36 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
I'll feel like waking up and exiting the fantasy nightmare that will never happen.




When the Internet started, we were on 14.4 baud. It didn't stay like that forever. You'd be a fool to think that Satellite internet is at it's zenith.

I WELCOME cable providers to jerk with their business models. When they start doing stuff like that, smart people get to work and make these folks irrelevant.

Cable internet is not the end all be all of internet connection. We're still in the infancy of all of this. The last thing I want to see happen is for the government to stifle innovation - such as what Google Fiber is doing - by demonstrating that they're willing to regulatory capture these industries and make innovation in this realm unattractive.


Why is Google Fiber bad?
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