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Old 08-02-2010, 07:59 PM  
healthpellets healthpellets is offline
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Net Neutrality: Let's have a discussion

Taco John brought us THIS THREAD earlier today, and I don't want clutter a 5th Amendment thread with a general discussion.

So let's discuss net neutrality.

What is it?

Quote:
When dealing with any form of network, be it telephone service, cable television or the Internet, there is often a business philosophy called network neutrality at work. When dealing specifically with Internet issues, the term is usually shortened to net neutrality, but the basic principles are still the same. Net neutrality refers to the non-discriminatory nature of essential Internet components such as servers, ISPs and transmission lines. In the eyes of an idealized Internet, all users have the right to send and receive packets of information equally. The principle of net neutrality makes this possible. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-net-neutrality.htm
Basically, it comes down to one evil or the other. On one hand, we have the government step in to regulate and "enforce" net neutrality via the FCC. While the FCC currently doesn't have the authority to do so, they are working with legislators to introduce a bill to expand their authority.

On the other hand, we have the current situation which is where the Telecommunications industry has control of the product they supply, and they theoretically allow open and unfettered access to all web traffic.

So far, we've had a few instances of Telcos shaping traffic of heavy bit torrent users, which was only found out after subscribers became suspicious and investigated it for themselves. Most ISPs, in their user agreements, state their right to limit access or shape traffic should they deem your use derogatory to their network.

So where do you come down on this? Government involvement or status quo?

IMO, thus far we're talking about solving yet to be seen problem with preemptive government intervention. While i'm not a fan of the theoretical restrictions that could be placed on internet traffic by ISPs, it thus far seems to be the lesser of two evils for a couple reasons. 1) most people have at least two choices for internet access (yes, i realize that not everyone does, even in metropolitan areas), and that number should continue to expand with technological development; 2) there are a couple of ways to get to sites should your ISP decide that you don't need to visit those sites (TOR and Haystack are a couple currently available options).

Discuss.
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Old 04-24-2014, 08:18 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
I'll feel like waking up and exiting the fantasy nightmare that will never happen.




When the Internet started, we were on 14.4 baud. It didn't stay like that forever. You'd be a fool to think that Satellite internet is at it's zenith.

I WELCOME cable providers to jerk with their business models. When they start doing stuff like that, smart people get to work and make these folks irrelevant.

Cable internet is not the end all be all of internet connection. We're still in the infancy of all of this. The last thing I want to see happen is for the government to stifle innovation - such as what Google Fiber is doing - by demonstrating that they're willing to regulatory capture these industries and make innovation in this realm unattractive.
The only way government will stifle innovation is if they **** with what is already working and the FCC pass this stupid regulation.

And I am curious like hcf in regards to why you think Google Fiber is bad. IMO it looks like the free market at work, they can afford to run the lines and build the infrastructure.
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Old 04-24-2014, 08:24 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Why is Google Fiber bad?
I think he's saying Google Fiber is innovation that too much government regulation might stifle.
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Old 04-24-2014, 08:50 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I think he's saying Google Fiber is innovation that too much government regulation might stifle.

Liberals seem to very anti regulation on net. But cannot get enough regulation on other things. Confusing group. One would thing if Govt controlled it we could ensure underserved peoples will be better taken care of.
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Old 04-24-2014, 09:18 AM   #34
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Obama pledges Net neutrality laws if elected president
October 29, 2007
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If elected president, Barack Obama plans to prioritize, well, barring broadband providers like AT&T and Comcast from prioritizing Internet content.
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Old 04-24-2014, 09:29 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Why is Google Fiber bad?
I wouldnt say they are bad, but one must be also aware that they monetize your information. Google already has a lot of info on people's lives, and google fiber will allow them to aggregate even more.
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Old 04-24-2014, 10:00 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
I wouldnt say they are bad, but one must be also aware that they monetize your information. Google already has a lot of info on people's lives, and google fiber will allow them to aggregate even more.

So, they make a profit. Like when you subscribe to a magazine your name can be sold to direct mail companies. They just have more ways to collect information but no more than other service providers if they wanted to aggregate the information?
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Old 04-24-2014, 10:12 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
but no more than other service providers if they wanted to aggregate the information?
pontentially a lot more since they can combine info they have gained from google search, android, youtube, google plus, google maps, google wallet.

this info can be combined to find an individuals web searching, traveling, spending, and social habits among others.

as for ISPs, users can always use a VPN/proxy to limit the amount of info that a ISP can collect about you, but that can become cumbersome if an ISP decides to throttle VPN/proxy/encrypted traffic.

This also becomes important in the area of Voice over IP (VOIP) where latency is a huge issue.

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Old 04-24-2014, 12:49 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
I have yet to understand why any tech savvy person would be against net neutraility.

As far as why they aren't treated as utilities, they tried and the courts said they couldn't.
just read the court case. I think your article interpreted things incorrectly

Quote:
Originally Posted by pg 4 of court case pdf
Given that the Commission has chosen to classify broadband providers in a manner that exempts them from treatment as common carriers, the Communications Act expressly prohibits the Commission from nonetheless regulating them as such. Because the Commission has failed to establish that the anti-discrimination and anti- blocking rules do not impose per se common carrier obligations, we vacate those portions of the Open Internet Order.
the FCC can still classify ISP's as common carriers. The appeal court said that the FCC cant classify them as something other than common carriers but still treat them as common carriers.

Make ISPs into "common carriers," says former FCC commissioner


Quote:
Michael Copps, an FCC commissioner from 2001 to 2011...wrote a blog post titled, "The Buck Stops At The FCC," calling upon the commission to "reclassify broadband as 'telecommunications' under Title II of the Communications Act." The effect of that move would be to designate Internet service providers as "common carriers," making them subject to increased FCC regulation.

Such a move would bring fierce opposition from telecommunications companies and their friends in Congress. But the FCC's previous failure to reclassify broadband blew up in its face when a court ruled that that the agency couldn't impose anti-blocking and anti-discrimination regulations on ISPs because they aren't classified as common carriers.

"The good news is that the solution is pretty simple," Copps wrote. "It doesn’t require a new telecommunications statute replete with time-consuming years of legislative horse-trading and special interest lobbying. All it requires is an FCC big enough to own up to its previous mistakes and courageous enough to put our communications future back on track."
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:04 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
I'll feel like waking up and exiting the fantasy nightmare that will never happen.




When the Internet started, we were on 14.4 baud. It didn't stay like that forever. You'd be a fool to think that Satellite internet is at it's zenith.

I WELCOME cable providers to jerk with their business models. When they start doing stuff like that, smart people get to work and make these folks irrelevant.

Cable internet is not the end all be all of internet connection. We're still in the infancy of all of this. The last thing I want to see happen is for the government to stifle innovation - such as what Google Fiber is doing - by demonstrating that they're willing to regulatory capture these industries and make innovation in this realm unattractive.
So what you are saying is that only the big companies should be milked for both their connection to the Internet and then access to end users on the Internet. While little guys like you should get a free ride because you are a poor little site? There is administrative overhead involved in monitoring how much data is going to even the small sites for each ISP, and someone should pay for it, so why not you? I mean, you are the one that needs access to their users.

There are some projects being done by google and some others with lower flying aircraft/balloons to offer internet access, but the biggest problem with satellites is latency.
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:50 PM   #40
htismaqe htismaqe is offline
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This is a VERY tough issue for a tech person like myself. We tend to be anarchists when it comes to anything that threatens to "control" the internet. The problem is... you are looking at two competing "evils" in big business and govt.

In a perfect world you'd have a minimal set of laws that are there solely to ensure that there is always room for more competition in the market. That would act as a check on big business abuses. I'm not at all sure how this would work though because you are dealing with so many different govt entities from the Federal all the way down to the municipal level.
I work for the largest ISP (by certain measures, it's somewhat subjective) in the world and it's STILL a tough issue for me.

Certainly, nobody wants their ISP to hamper traffic in an effort to boost their own profile.

However, there's just no way I could ever agree with allowing the government to step in an regulate it. They call it "neutrality" and it's anything but.
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:52 PM   #41
htismaqe htismaqe is offline
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Originally Posted by morphius View Post
There are some projects being done by google and some others with lower flying aircraft/balloons to offer internet access, but the biggest problem with satellites is latency.
Latency can be mitigated to a great extent by re-writing TCP headers. UDP works pretty good over VSAT for the most part.

The biggest problem with residential VSAT providers is their god-awful core network architecture. They operate like cheap cable companies for the most part.

As an access mechanism to a reliable core network, VSAT is awesome. I have several customers that use it, even with VoIP.
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:10 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
And I am curious like hcf in regards to why you think Google Fiber is bad. IMO it looks like the free market at work, they can afford to run the lines and build the infrastructure.
What are you talking about? I think Google Fiber is awesome. I don't want the government to screw it up.
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:11 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by morphius View Post
So what you are saying is that only the big companies should be milked for both their connection to the Internet and then access to end users on the Internet. While little guys like you should get a free ride because you are a poor little site? There is administrative overhead involved in monitoring how much data is going to even the small sites for each ISP, and someone should pay for it, so why not you? I mean, you are the one that needs access to their users.
I didn't say any of that.
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:13 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
What are you talking about? I think Google Fiber is awesome. I don't want the government to screw it up.
I misunderstood what you posted, that was my bad.
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Old 04-25-2014, 04:42 PM   #45
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I didn't say any of that.
So, are you saying that ISP's should be able to charge anyone on the internet that wants access to their customers or not?
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