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Old 08-02-2010, 06:59 PM  
healthpellets healthpellets is offline
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Net Neutrality: Let's have a discussion

Taco John brought us THIS THREAD earlier today, and I don't want clutter a 5th Amendment thread with a general discussion.

So let's discuss net neutrality.

What is it?

Quote:
When dealing with any form of network, be it telephone service, cable television or the Internet, there is often a business philosophy called network neutrality at work. When dealing specifically with Internet issues, the term is usually shortened to net neutrality, but the basic principles are still the same. Net neutrality refers to the non-discriminatory nature of essential Internet components such as servers, ISPs and transmission lines. In the eyes of an idealized Internet, all users have the right to send and receive packets of information equally. The principle of net neutrality makes this possible. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-net-neutrality.htm
Basically, it comes down to one evil or the other. On one hand, we have the government step in to regulate and "enforce" net neutrality via the FCC. While the FCC currently doesn't have the authority to do so, they are working with legislators to introduce a bill to expand their authority.

On the other hand, we have the current situation which is where the Telecommunications industry has control of the product they supply, and they theoretically allow open and unfettered access to all web traffic.

So far, we've had a few instances of Telcos shaping traffic of heavy bit torrent users, which was only found out after subscribers became suspicious and investigated it for themselves. Most ISPs, in their user agreements, state their right to limit access or shape traffic should they deem your use derogatory to their network.

So where do you come down on this? Government involvement or status quo?

IMO, thus far we're talking about solving yet to be seen problem with preemptive government intervention. While i'm not a fan of the theoretical restrictions that could be placed on internet traffic by ISPs, it thus far seems to be the lesser of two evils for a couple reasons. 1) most people have at least two choices for internet access (yes, i realize that not everyone does, even in metropolitan areas), and that number should continue to expand with technological development; 2) there are a couple of ways to get to sites should your ISP decide that you don't need to visit those sites (TOR and Haystack are a couple currently available options).

Discuss.
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:10 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by morphius View Post
So, are you saying that ISP's should be able to charge anyone on the internet that wants access to their customers or not?
I'm saying that I'm not afraid to see them try it.
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:22 PM   #62
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And for that matter, I'm saying that it may become a necessity for them in the very near future.
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Old 04-29-2014, 05:50 AM   #63
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This is an interesting debate because of the fact that it deals with the internet. There are people you'd normally expect to be on the side of ever more government control who for some reason don't want the government involved if it impacts something they personally use every day, like their web browsing speed. Then you have others who you might assume wouldn't want the government telling private businesses what they can and can't do with their networks, but in this case they do.
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Old 04-29-2014, 06:37 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Out of the $8.71 billion USF ... $274 million is chump change.

You REALLY don't want to argue with Htis on this... he will make you look even dumber than you normally do.
Sure I do.

He said 90 percent don't go to large companies.

Well, 20 percent goes to one large company, with two large companies getting the next largest amounts.

That seems more than " don't see a dime of the USF."

That's a lot of dimes more.
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Old 04-29-2014, 07:01 AM   #65
xbarretx xbarretx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
It's good to see that someone finally updated this ancient thing. I remember back in 2003 when they were first pushing this scare graphic. Ten years later, we still haven't seen anything like it come into existence.
I'm glad someone tried to pull the "that was insane and we haven't seen it" response to that image. You know why we haven't seen it yet? Because up until recently, the FCC had jurisdiction as far as broadband providers. Thanks for helping to reinforce why we need net neutrality to stay as is. +rep
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Old 04-29-2014, 12:18 PM   #66
htismaqe htismaqe is offline
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Originally Posted by xbarretx View Post
Seriously though, the point isn't to have big brother step up to the plate. The point is to stop companies from ruining innovation and free speech online.
Government intervention isn't going to solve either one of those problems.

In fact, one could argue the government would exacerbate the 2nd problem...
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Old 04-29-2014, 05:45 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Sure I do.

He said 90 percent don't go to large companies.

Well, 20 percent goes to one large company, with two large companies getting the next largest amounts.

That seems more than " don't see a dime of the USF."

That's a lot of dimes more.
Um... you do know that Lifeline is not a company right? It's a program with participation by many many many different companies. Yes some of the big companies see USF money through the Lifeline program but much more of the USF money goes to smaller rural operations. Of course as Dirk points out, very often that money eventually makes its way back to the big companies but that isn't the point.
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Old 04-29-2014, 07:12 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
Government intervention isn't going to solve either one of those problems.

In fact, one could argue the government would exacerbate the 2nd problem...
You could (and I agree with you on it) but has that stopped POTS (plain old telephone service)? For the most part, broadband isn't a glittery want. It's a need, considering as a workforce we need Ethernet to work remotely and while traveling for business. Also it's more efficient and cost effective to utilize VOIP solutions instead of a landline. Society has evolved to a point where broadband is a utility. As such we need safeguards in place to protect it.

Broadband providers can cry all they want but I have read many of there financial statements and the amount of money spent towards improving there network is pitiful. Also, why sell the public on faster speeds and larger bandwidth if it's such a burden to manage there network? Point is, it isn't. With the previous net neutrality guidelines we not only saw increased speed and capacity, but a greater utilization and adaptation of the technology.

Lastly, any sort of red herring rebuttal we have heard is incorrect. If the argument is sound we would have no need for laws prohibiting insider training because most people wouldn't game the system right? Most business employees are ethically sound right? Of course a broadband provider would never try and double dip......just like payola never happened on the radio.... The stuff did, does, and will happen. In more ways then one, it seems Corp. America is like NASCAR.....if your not cheating your not trying.

Make no mistake, I don't want the governments nose in this any more than you do. Which is precisely why Verizon forcing the situation in court was a terrible idea and it needs to bite them in the


That's how you debate!
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Old 05-06-2014, 07:56 AM   #69
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Level 3 calls out Comcast, TWC and others for ‘deliberately harming’ their own broadband service direct link
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“Level 3 has 51 peers that are interconnected in 45 cities through over 1,360 10 Gigabit Ethernet ports (plus a few smaller ports). The distribution of that capacity with individual peers ranges from a single 10 Gigabit Ethernet port to 148 ports,” Taylor wrote.

He then said that the average utilization across those interconnected ports is 36%. Utilization at 12 of Level 3′s ports is in excess of 90%, however, which is saturated and causes service slowdowns and packet loss. Level 3 is currently working with six of those 12 partner ISPs to upgrade service and resolve issues.

The remaining six peers, however, refuse to work with Level 3 to address the congestion. These ports have been saturated for more than a year according to Taylor, but the ISPs still refuse to work toward a resolution.

“They are deliberately harming the service they deliver to their paying customers,” Taylor wrote. “They are not allowing us to fulfil the requests their customers make for content.”

Which six ISPs are we talking about here? Taylor stops short of naming them, but he still manages to shame them.

“Five of those congested peers are in the United States and one is in Europe,” he said. “There are none in any other part of the world. All six are large Broadband consumer networks with a dominant or exclusive market share in their local market. In countries or markets where consumers have multiple Broadband choices (like the UK) there are no congested peers.”

Taylor also noted that the ISPs in question “happen to rank dead last in customer satisfaction across all industries in the U.S.,” and he linked to the American Customer Satisfaction Index, which regularly ranks ISPs including Comcast, Time Warner Cable, Charter, Cox, Verizon and Cablevision at the bottom of customer satisfaction surveys.
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Old 05-07-2014, 08:28 AM   #70
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yep and i just saw this one.

http://news.yahoo.com/case-against-t...201015347.html

http://www.level3.com/~/media/Assets/legal/cicconi.pdf a letter from Level 3's CLO to AT&T back in 2011.

good find Planetdoc and its good to see other companies coming out and calling a balk on these Broadband providers.

there both long reads... but VERY informative. Tell us again BROADBAND fanboys....that this stuff doesn't happen!? Looks like AT&T's been sandbagging.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:12 AM   #71
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The basics of Net Neutrality, courtesy of John Oliver. (NSFW for language.)



He addresses many of us, specifically, near the end. How about that.
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:47 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
The basics of Net Neutrality, courtesy of John Oliver. (NSFW for language.)



He addresses many of us, specifically, near the end. How about that.
That guy is hilarious. I was literally in tears.
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