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Old 09-03-2010, 02:43 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Iraqis weigh in on the withdrawal.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/...their-country/

Worth a read.
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Old 09-03-2010, 02:56 PM   #2
ForeverChiefs58 ForeverChiefs58 is online now
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I think it would have been better if the people of iraq simply said "thanks" and move on.
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:53 PM   #3
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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I think it would have been better if the people of iraq simply said "thanks" and move on.
I think the Shi'a should thank us. The Sunni have nothing to thank us for....they were ousted from power by us. We should leave and let them kill one another anyway.
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:09 PM   #4
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I think the Shi'a should thank us. The Sunni have nothing to thank us for....they were ousted from power by us. We should leave and let them kill one another anyway.
Holy crap! I agree with you. I think I need to check my temp.

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Old 09-03-2010, 05:25 PM   #5
Iowanian Iowanian is offline
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Yeah, the Shiite's who were supporting militias that bombed and killed Americans are going to be really, really thankful.

"KARRADA, Baghdad

Khalid Al-Okaidi, 35
Civil servant

How Things Changed: “Nothing has happened from 2003 until now, and there is no kind of development in our life. We are facing problems on all levels. We have terrorist cells here in Iraq because of Iran, and our infrastructure has collapsed. We have seasonal problems: in summer there is a lack of water, and electricity is also very rare and only provided to the neighborhoods of government members."

What?! Impossible!

BROWN FOR IRAN!!!
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:41 PM   #6
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I wish Sam Kinison could have interviewed the iraqi's
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:44 PM   #7
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I think the Shi'a should thank us. The Sunni have nothing to thank us for....they were ousted from power by us. We should leave and let them kill one another anyway.
damn.
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:41 PM   #8
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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damn.
I don't think you really understand my positions as a Republican.
I don't support our FP in the post-Cold War world.
I agree with what Ronald Reagan said in his autobiography—which is getting involved further than we already were in the Middle East is a "mistake." That goes for PGWI forward. Look where that has led.

This is a very different world than the West. They do not have our values and we can't shove our values down their throats. They don't have a 2000 year background that we have with things like he Magna Carta, liberty, John Locke, Jefferson etc etc.

They also have a lot of clan vendettas against each other. It's just not worth more loss of American life and it really is fiddling while Rome burns when we can't even control our own border and we go bankrupt. While everyone is looking 5000 miles over in foreign lands, the socialists are taking over our country.

You support a progressive FP under the false notion it's a defense. You support Empire. I don't. This is my problem with today's conservatives and Republicans. It's not part of traditional conservativism and as such, is not good for America. Nor do I support the constant demagoguery over petty statements from Iran in order to incite people for war on their civilians. So this is where we part ways.
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:00 PM   #9
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I don't think you really understand my positions as a Republican.
I don't support our FP in the post-Cold War world.
I agree with what Ronald Reagan said in his autobiography—which is getting involved further that we already were the Middle East is a "mistake." That goes for PGWI forward. Look where that has led.

This is a very different world than the West. They do not have our values and we can't shove our values down their throats. They don't have a 2000 year background that we have with things like he Magna Carta, liberty, John Locke, Jefferson etc etc.

They also have a lot of clan vendettas against each other. It's just not worth more loss of American life and it really is fiddling while Rome burns when we can't even control our own border and we go bankrupt. While everyone is looking over 5000 miles over in foreign lands the socialists are taking over our country.

You support a progressive FP under the false notion it's a defense. You support Empire. I don't. This is my problem with today's conservatives and Republicans. It's not part of traditional conservativism and as such, is not good for America. Nor do I support the constant demagoguery over petty statements from Iran in order to incite people for war on their civilians. So this is where we part ways.
Cool. For your safety and well being be glad there are those who see threats as very real and very dedicated. Its nice and fun to live in the world where we can have nice compact and neat theories, put labels on all we see, and not recognize the reality of what the world is. Its dangerous and there are a lot of people who want us dead. They hate our success, they hate our potential and they envy our future.

You are right regarding the border. Its criminal how we have allowed that to happen and will take a real leader to restore the border and our commitment to protect it.

Its where we draw the line in the sand.
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:19 AM   #10
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Cool. For your safety and well being be glad there are those who see threats as very real and very dedicated.
Again, this is the crux of the matter—you see it as defense. I don't. ( save for breaking up the camps in Afghanistan originally to deal with AQ) Starting wars of offense is not defense. It antagonizes other peoples, the kind I don't want to mess with. That's what German did circa 1930's. That's not Americanism.

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Its nice and fun to live in the world where we can have nice compact and neat theories, put labels on all we see, and not recognize the reality of what the world is.
If you can't see beyond the "label" then you don't understand the concept the label stands for. This whole "label-is-bad" line is nothing but a red-herring. The label simply shows the demarcation points on the right. It's needed for to clarify the realities so there is differentiation of what one believes and supports. If you prefer vague language and legerdemain of the politician ( a sign of manipulating you to shape your opinion) or that marks today's politics, then that's your choice but I find it intellectually dishonest and lazy. Here in this context, it's an empty argument, especially when I went out of my way to clarify where I differ from other wings of the right with specifics to show you what I meant: There is a traditional Old Right view of foreign policy that differs from today's modern right. Even the guy who invented the label "freedom fries" is from that camp. He thoroughly reverse his stand on Iraq later once he had the cognitive ability to realize he was lied to.

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Its dangerous and there are a lot of people who want us dead. They hate our success, they hate our potential and they envy our future.
That's called fear mongering by relying on a generality of "they." Who is "they"? This tactic is designed to create chaos and confusion. You want to avoid a specific "label" so you can do whatever you want to whoever you want despite any specific facts in order to justify it. If you believe this then you've allowed yourself to be manipulated by such fear. There are dangers in the world but it's not everywhere all around us as promoted here. That's irrational fear. Of course, fear can stem from hate that already existed.

The enemy is Al Qaeda, it is not a big amorphous "they." Surveys in the ME show that Arabs do like our institutions but they do not like our policies in the ME.

If you believe propaganda such as "they hate us" that's your choice but I don't find it to be intelligent. It's emotional knee-jerk reaction. Of course that's the intent of those who use it.

Quote:
You are right regarding the border. Its criminal how we have allowed that to happen and will take a real leader to restore the border and our commitment to protect it.
It won't happen if we're too busy fighting the world or trying to engineer it by destroying rogue states or the world.* That's bankrupting us. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't rail against Obama and still try to have big govt for what you want. Wars, including ours, even the American Revolution, was followed by bad economies. You simply have to choose and choose wisely. Only thing, now that we've gone after nation states not connected to 9/11 based on lies told by NeoCon politicians, we've lost sight of handling AQ and made things worse including here at home.

Quote:
Its where we draw the line in the sand.
We draw the line where RR said to. He was a FP realist. He knew how to choose his battles.


* Don't kid yourself on this Bush said he was going to make over the world in his second inaugural address. Obama is NO different. They are both progressives.
Just listen to the left support Obama's war now. It is his war now.

No offense HCF, but I don't understand how you can accept govt farm subsidies while you rail on the left for big govt and socialism. You support big govt too.
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Old 09-04-2010, 08:48 AM   #11
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Well, thats the good part for you. While those who defend us do their job you can speculate about if it is or is not defense. And as long as they are successful, you can continue to question and theorize safely. Thats why a good defense works.


What farm subsidy do you refer to?
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:09 AM   #12
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Well, thats the good part for you. While those who defend us do their job ...
You're not getting my message. I am not trying to persuade you, mind you, I was just trying to clarify my position for you to understand because your recent responses to my posts show being baffled by mine.

I wouldn't recommend trying to persuade me with a lecture on how big govt and the state is trying to defend me when I just told you I do not see what has happening as a defense but an offense that is making the problem worse while bankrupting us. We are bankrupt you know. Bush stimulated to pay for his ME wars.

Quote:
...you can speculate about if it is or is not defense.
It has nothing to do with speculation. It has to do with a point of view that differs from yours. One that, never mind your disagreement with it, you can't even understand accurately enough to see it as a point of view because you think your pov of view is a fact. It's not. It's a point of view.
Facts used to base a pov is another matter. You choose to believe what the govt tells you when conservativism is about being deeply skeptical of govt.

I am just saying we disagree and as a courtesy taking the time to explain why I have my point of view.

Quote:
And as long as they are successful, you can continue to question and theorize safely. Thats why a good defense works.
They are not being successful.The facts belie that claim. It's been nearly ten years. Winning through force alone, but not the peace, is not success to me. Everyone has their own standards I guess. This matter is spreading into other countries while our operating basis creates more recruits for the so called "enemy" even if they're vaguely defined. Furthermore, once the big govt guys get all of "them" our own freedom will be gone. They already are. We are next. That's what you don't see—the long view. Permanent warfare will only bring a destruction to this country and it's principles of limited govt. This has been the fate of every empire.

Quote:
What farm subsidy do you refer to?
The ones we discussed a year or so ago. As I recall you supported them as necessary. There's a search here for that.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:23 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I don't think you really understand my positions as a Republican.
I don't support our FP in the post-Cold War world.
I agree with what Ronald Reagan said in his autobiography—which is getting involved further than we already were in the Middle East is a "mistake." That goes for PGWI forward. Look where that has led.
Liar.

He said his deployment of marines to Lebanon for a mission in which they were unable to adequately defend themselves was a mistake. Your extrapolation of that statement to the present day situation is completely unjustified.

For an accurate version of what Ronald Reagan really said, see the Ron Paul Deceived. BucEyedPea Believed. (The Fabricated Reagan Quote) thread or read the chapter in Reagan's autobiography, An American Life, that discusses the mission in Lebanon.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:29 AM   #14
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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There are a number of farm subsidies as you call them that are quite important. I do support those that have merit and would kill a bunch off that don't. What that has to do with the tread is beyond me but there you have it.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:40 AM   #15
The Mad Crapper The Mad Crapper is offline
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BROWN FOR IRAN!!!
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