Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Ed & Dave Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-11-2010, 09:45 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $7852
Fareed Zakaria asks the difficult, necessary question about 9/11.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/04/z...d-to-9-11.html

What America Has Lost
It’s clear we overreacted to 9/11.

by Fareed Zakaria
September 04, 2010

Nine years after 9/11, can anyone doubt that Al Qaeda is simply not that deadly a threat? Since that gruesome day in 2001, once governments everywhere began serious countermeasures, Osama bin Laden’s terror network has been unable to launch a single major attack on high-value targets in the United States and Europe. While it has inspired a few much smaller attacks by local jihadis, it has been unable to execute a single one itself. Today, Al Qaeda’s best hope is to find a troubled young man who has been radicalized over the Internet, and teach him to stuff his underwear with explosives.

I do not minimize Al Qaeda’s intentions, which are barbaric. I question its capabilities. In every recent conflict, the United States has been right about the evil intentions of its adversaries but massively exaggerated their strength. In the 1980s, we thought the Soviet Union was expanding its power and influence when it was on the verge of economic and political bankruptcy. In the 1990s, we were certain that Saddam Hussein had a nuclear arsenal. In fact, his factories could barely make soap.

The error this time is more damaging. September 11 was a shock to the American psyche and the American system. As a result, we overreacted. In a crucially important Washington Post reporting project, “Top Secret America,” Dana Priest and William Arkin spent two years gathering information on how 9/11 has really changed America.

Here are some of the highlights. Since September 11, 2001, the U.S. government has created or reconfigured at least 263 organizations to tackle some aspect of the war on terror. The amount of money spent on intelligence has risen by 250 percent, to $75 billion (and that’s the public number, which is a gross underestimate). That’s more than the rest of the world spends put together. Thirty-three new building complexes have been built for intelligence bureaucracies alone, occupying 17 million square feet—the equivalent of 22 U.S. Capitols or three Pentagons. Five miles southeast of the White House, the largest government site in 50 years is being built—at a cost of $3.4 billion—to house the largest bureaucracy after the Pentagon and the Department of Veterans Affairs: the Department of Homeland Security, which has a workforce of 230,000 people.

This new system produces 50,000 reports a year—136 a day!—which of course means few ever get read. Those senior officials who have read them describe most as banal; one tells me, “Many could be produced in an hour using Google.” Fifty-one separate bureaucracies operating in 15 states track the flow of money to and from terrorist organizations, with little information-sharing.

Some 30,000 people are now employed exclusively to listen in on phone conversations and other communications in the United States. And yet no one in Army intelligence noticed that Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan had been making a series of strange threats at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where he trained. The father of the Nigerian “Christmas bomber” reported his son’s radicalism to the U.S. Embassy. But that message never made its way to the right people in this vast security apparatus. The plot was foiled only by the bomber’s own incompetence and some alert passengers.

Such mistakes might be excusable. But the rise of this national-security state has entailed a vast expansion in the government’s powers that now touches every aspect of American life, even when seemingly unrelated to terrorism. The most chilling aspect of Dave Eggers’s heartbreaking book, Zeitoun, is that the federal government’s fastest and most efficient response to Hurricane Katrina was the creation of a Guantánamo-like prison facility (in days!) in which 1,200 American citizens were summarily detained and denied any of their constitutional rights for months, a suspension of habeas corpus that reads like something out of a Kafka novel.

In the past, the U.S. government has built up for wars, assumed emergency authority, and sometimes abused that power, yet always demobilized after the war. But this is a war without end. When do we declare victory? When do the emergency powers cease?

Conservatives are worried about the growing power of the state. Surely this usurpation is more worrisome than a few federal stimulus programs. When James Madison pondered this issue, he came to a simple conclusion: “Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germs of every other … In war, too, the discretionary power of the executive is extended?.?.?.?and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people.

“No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual war,” Madison concluded.
Posts: 44,311
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 09:49 PM   #2
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $7852
Money shot:

Quote:
In the past, the U.S. government has built up for wars, assumed emergency authority, and sometimes abused that power, yet always demobilized after the war. But this is a war without end. When do we declare victory? When do the emergency powers cease?
This is actually a question I'd like anybody reading to answer.
__________________
Posts: 44,311
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:02 PM   #3
alnorth alnorth is online now
MVP
 
alnorth's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Iowania
Casino cash: $9482
The "environment" thread prefix? Did you pick that because the tree would stand out on the page?
__________________
<WarMoose> Think about how stupid the average person is. Now realize that half of them are dumber than that.
<Chunda> Why half?
Posts: 26,765
alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:07 PM   #4
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Money shot:



This is actually a question I'd like anybody reading to answer.
Aren't Code Pink/Pacifist/Liberal radical types the ones who have said....the war on terrorism can't be a "war," because it has no end?

If in a moment of lucid analysis, are you admitting that the war on terrorism IS, afterall, a "war"...then you have answered your own question, if you were to really think about it.

Since it's a war without end, how and why the hell would we "demobilize?" Victory is maintaining a posture and preparedness to minimize terrorist acts--which, heretofore since 9/11, we've seemingly done (heck, even as the current administration could be accused, legitimately, of "napping" on.) We have many, many folks to thank for that, of course.

If, by "emergency powers" you mean powers that Obama has chosen/suggested should be extended beyond the original provisions...perhaps you should ask him. Or do the more logical thing, and assume that as someone whose done an about face on related issues, that "additional information" and "intelligence" has shown him the light--and the errors of his previous thinking.



Of course, that would not be consistent with your America Sucks....perspective.

As Lady Thatcher said, "There are too many people who imagine that there is something sophisticated about always believing the best of those who hate your country, and the worst of those who defend it."

Just sayin....
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,004
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:07 PM   #5
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $7852
Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The "environment" thread prefix? Did you pick that because the tree would stand out on the page?
I am practicing civil disobedience with thread prefixes.
__________________
Posts: 44,311
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:18 PM   #6
alnorth alnorth is online now
MVP
 
alnorth's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Iowania
Casino cash: $9482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Since it's a war without end, how and why the hell would we "demobilize?" Victory is maintaining a posture and preparedness to minimize terrorist acts--which, heretofore since 9/11, we've seemingly done (heck, even as the current administration could be accused, legitimately, of "napping" on.) We have many, many folks to thank for that, of course.
Well, first ever since we defeated the rogue nation which aided a terrorist group, the "war" on terror was over. This current "war on terror" is about as silly of a misuse of the word as "war on drugs". This may be semantics, but we are not fighting a war. What we have is a much higher degree of security in place to defend against a new potential threat.

Now, putting aside whether the word "war" in this context is silly or not, I think it is probably pretty clear that we have overreacted, the only question is by how much.

If this article is suggesting that we should "demobilize", as in tear everything back down and go back to where we were in 2000, no I do not think that is reasonable. The capability for small non-nation groups to inflict a lot of damage via terrorist acts is a reality that must be addressed.

However, we have spent a jaw-dropping amount of money on departments, government workers (who probably all have guaranteed pensions), equipment, infrastructure, and bureaucracy on a threat that can probably be addressed a lot more inexpensively.

That, and our military is draining billions of dollars a month getting shot at for no good reason in Afghanistan anymore. It is just destined to become a hellhole ruled by some dictator as soon as we leave, like many other nations in the world.
__________________
<WarMoose> Think about how stupid the average person is. Now realize that half of them are dumber than that.
<Chunda> Why half?
Posts: 26,765
alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:23 PM   #7
alnorth alnorth is online now
MVP
 
alnorth's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Iowania
Casino cash: $9482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I am practicing civil disobedience with thread prefixes.
why?

It's not like thread prefixes are some harmful thing imposed on us all, they do serve a useful purpose. For example, if I want to see only environment threads, I dont want to see the results cluttered up with non-environment threads because some joker doesn't like the available prefix selection.
__________________
<WarMoose> Think about how stupid the average person is. Now realize that half of them are dumber than that.
<Chunda> Why half?
Posts: 26,765
alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.alnorth has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:34 PM   #8
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $7852
Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
why?

It's not like thread prefixes are some harmful thing imposed on us all, they do serve a useful purpose. For example, if I want to see only environment threads, I dont want to see the results cluttered up with non-environment threads because some joker doesn't like the available prefix selection.
It was implemented around the same time as DaFace refused to "bring back" DraftPlanet.

So it turned into a cause of mine to spite him.
__________________
Posts: 44,311
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:41 PM   #9
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $7852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Since it's a war without end, how and why the hell would we "demobilize?" Victory is maintaining a posture and preparedness to minimize terrorist acts--which, heretofore since 9/11, we've seemingly done (heck, even as the current administration could be accused, legitimately, of "napping" on.) We have many, many folks to thank for that, of course.
Read WaPo's "Top Secret America," if you haven't already.

What it tells us is that in our everlasting fervor after 9/11, we've bloated up our intelligence bureaucracy to levels that are actually more harmful than they are helpful.

We've been able to pretty much shut down terrorist attacks, but we have much more money-sucks in the bureaucracy, including a vast dependence on private contractors, than what's necessary to accomplish that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
If, by "emergency powers" you mean powers that Obama has chosen/suggested should be extended beyond the original provisions...perhaps you should ask him. Or do the more logical thing, and assume that as someone whose done an about face on related issues, that "additional information" and "intelligence" has shown him the light--and the errors of his previous thinking.
Nah, I'm not going to defer to the President simply because he's the President and he must know better. I'm going to assume Obama has turned coat on this issue for the same reason every other President does: "power" has shown him the light. The executive branch, even under a liberal, is going to be incredibly resistant to reducing its own power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Of course, that would not be consistent with your America Sucks....perspective.

As Lady Thatcher said, "There are too many people who imagine that there is something sophisticated about always believing the best of those who hate your country, and the worst of those who defend it."

Just sayin....
k
__________________
Posts: 44,311
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:42 PM   #10
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $7852
Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
I think it is probably pretty clear that we have overreacted, the only question is by how much.

If this article is suggesting that we should "demobilize", as in tear everything back down and go back to where we were in 2000, no I do not think that is reasonable. The capability for small non-nation groups to inflict a lot of damage via terrorist acts is a reality that must be addressed.

However, we have spent a jaw-dropping amount of money on departments, government workers (who probably all have guaranteed pensions), equipment, infrastructure, and bureaucracy on a threat that can probably be addressed a lot more inexpensively.

That, and our military is draining billions of dollars a month getting shot at for no good reason in Afghanistan anymore. It is just destined to become a hellhole ruled by some dictator as soon as we leave, like many other nations in the world.
Good post.
__________________
Posts: 44,311
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:44 PM   #11
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
Supporter
 
petegz28's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Olathe, Ks
Casino cash: $7870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post

As Lady Thatcher said, "There are too many people who imagine that there is something sophisticated about always believing the best of those who hate your country, and the worst of those who defend it."

Just sayin....
This is an excellent quote.
__________________
Posts: 65,967
petegz28 is obviously part of the inner Circle.petegz28 is obviously part of the inner Circle.petegz28 is obviously part of the inner Circle.petegz28 is obviously part of the inner Circle.petegz28 is obviously part of the inner Circle.petegz28 is obviously part of the inner Circle.petegz28 is obviously part of the inner Circle.petegz28 is obviously part of the inner Circle.petegz28 is obviously part of the inner Circle.petegz28 is obviously part of the inner Circle.petegz28 is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:44 PM   #12
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $853
Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
....

That, and our military is draining billions of dollars a month getting shot at for no good reason in Afghanistan anymore. It is just destined to become a hellhole ruled by some dictator as soon as we leave, like many other nations in the world.
Yea, you are probably right....

I mean, money would be much better spent on yet more tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy. Yeppers.

Heaven knows, terrorists are now rendered 100% totally ineffective and incompetent, and they have no chance of ever pulling-off another 9/11. Nope. Never. Don't you worry your pretty little head, al.

Straight dope, brah.






__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,004
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:46 PM   #13
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Good post.
Wow, libertarian-al sucked off dickless-Direckshun. I really have lost my sense of this joint/cesspool.

And, you know what? That makes me feel really, really great.
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,004
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:46 PM   #14
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $7852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Wow, libertarian-al sucked off dickless-Direckshun. I really have lost my sense of this joint/cesspool.

And, you know what? That makes me feel really, really great.
Come again?
__________________
Posts: 44,311
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 10:48 PM   #15
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Come again?
You should direct that at al....

Heh.
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,004
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:09 PM.


This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.