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Old 10-19-2011, 09:42 AM  
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Gas Price Question?

I see that the price of oil went up a bit overnight and the price of gasoline immediately followed. Up a few cents from yesterday, which is up a few cents from the day before. And up about .10 cents since last week. I was wondering how come when the price of oil falls, it takes awhile for the price of gasoline to fall? A local TV station in Houston did a story on this and reported that the price of the gas at the station has already been paid for so when the price of oil falls, the savings at the pump is not reflected until the supply on hand is expired. Why isn't that the case in reverse?
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:50 PM   #61
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It's incredibly disingenuous and misleading to decry "low profit" margins on one hand, while simultaneously ignoring siphoning of profits for exorbitant salaries and benefits by claiming them as operating costs/expenses. Today, many corporate farmers and ethanol producers are great at doing this very same thing. They claim...."poor, poor, pitiful me!" on the one hand, while writing off "capital investments" and business "expenses" that provide them with a standard of living and quality of life commensurate with much higher "incomes"---all because they play the "we're a small business/corporation, but look at our low profit margin" game to the hilt.
Which is nowhere near the same subject as the OP.
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:50 PM   #62
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I have to agree with this post. There seems to be a lot of the "its not their fault" sentiment on this issue, when the real reaction should be more along the lines of "its part of how they make money".

I'm still not understanding what you and Banyon see as being "wrong" here, or what the fix would be...
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:50 PM   #63
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No, I'm not disagreeing. That's why I stated that the CEO's salary would be figured into the net income part.



No, I'm not agreeing with you that it's more complicated than that. In your scenario, the CEO is grossly overpaid (as it relates to revenue).
And I think we can probably draw up a list of companies where that's precisely the case. Not to the extent of my simplistic example, but it's fairly rampant throughout the corporate world these days.

And we're just looking at one aspect that profit margin doesn't adequately capture. Offshoring assets has a much more dramatic effect.
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:51 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by jspchief View Post
I have to agree with this post. There seems to be a lot of the "its not their fault" sentiment on this issue, when the real reaction should be more along the lines of "its part of how they make money".
I don't view them as being mutually-exclusive, or understand why anyone would think they are to begin with.
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:52 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
I'm still not understanding what you and Banyon see as being "wrong" here, or what the fix would be...
Where did I indicate there was anything wrong with it?
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:54 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by banyon View Post
And I think we can probably draw up a list of companies where that's precisely the case. Not to the extent of my simplistic example, but it's fairly rampant throughout the corporate world these days.

And we're just looking at one aspect that profit margin doesn't adequately capture. Offshoring assets has a much more dramatic effect.
Okay, I just gave ExxonMobil's numbers. Is that an example of an overpaid CEO?

And, you are aware that you can invest in these companies, right?
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:58 PM   #67
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Just like you play the poor beleaguered teacher game to the hilt. Sounds like rational self serving human nature to me?
If I lived in a liberal state with high teacher salaries and publicly backed benefits and pensions, like NJ or CT, you might have a point. In a conservative state, with entirely self-funded retirements and benefits and the lowest salaries in the country (check it if you want)? Your reasoning is laughable.

If you want to play the "we STILL pay your salary" baloney...where would you get cheaper daycare?
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:59 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
I do think corporate salaries are too high, but that's not an issue for oil majors specifically, it's across the board for large public corporations.

And I have noodled a bit on what to do about it, but it's not remotely easy. What was Steve Jobs worth to Apple? In all seriousness, they could have paid him a BILLION dollars a year, and I think there'd a reasonable argument that he was worth every penny.

There's various things you can do to try to limit excesses, but none are easy. All have work-arounds, or would likely be counterproductive in the long run. Ultimately, the best answer may simply be to let the marketplace decide -- by letting investors choose not to invest in those companies that they think aren't run with a sufficient emphasis placed on returns to shareholders.
Apple's a great example in your favor of a CEO who deserves to perhaps be overcompensated, but there are probably many more on the other side of the ledger. Look at their competitor HP, for example:

Quote:
Have CEO Severance Packages Gotten Out of Hand?

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/2265...eker.htm?cid=2

By Samuel Weigley | October 6, 2011 12:56 PM EDT

Like most employees, when CEOs of large companies don't meet the expectations of their employers, they can be fired. Yet unlike the average worker, the high-profile CEO often leaves the company with a hefty severance package, sometimes worth tens and even hundreds of millions of dollars.

(Photo: REUTERS / Michael Buholzer)
Leo Apotheker attends a session at the World Economic Forum (WEF) in Davos in this January 28, 2010 file photo.

Enlarge
(Photo: REUTERS / Michael Buholzer)
Leo Apotheker attends a session at the World Economic Forum (WEF) in Davos in this January 28, 2010 file photo.



One example is recently ousted Hewlett-Packard CEO Leo Apotheker, who served less than a year in his role. Despite his short stint with HP, he was entitled to nearly $14 million in severance pay.


Apotheker was entitled to a cash payment of $7.2 million, which he will receive over 18 months. In addition, the former CEO will receive a bonus of $2.4 million under the "Pay-for-Results Plan" that the company enacted in 2005. During the chief's tenure, the stock price tumbled more than 40 percent -- so it is unclear on what results, if any, Apotheker needed to hit in order to receive the bonus.


Furthermore, Apotheker will receive about $3.6 million in accelerated stock vesting, along with several hundred thousand dollars in relocation costs and other miscellaneous expenses. HP has declined to comment on the payout.

Most heads of large corporations would receive large payouts if they are fired. According to data compiled by corporate governance firm research firm GovernmentMetrics International (GMI), 470 CEOs of S&P 500 companies are able to receive a severance package in the case of termination. If termination is due to a change of control in the company, the median pay exit package would equal about $33 million, while the median would be nearly $21 million if the termination was a firing without cause.

The big severances are not just for companies experiencing success. More than a quarter of the companies in the S&P 500 reported declining income and/or net losses in their last full fiscal year, GMI notes. However, it would cost approximately $2.6 billion to fire all of these CEOs.

The large exit package is nothing new, and some CEOs have received far more than Apotheker after leaving their respective companies. Merrill Lynch fired CEO Stanley O'Neal in 2007 after the company reported over $2 billion in losses for that fiscal year's third-quarter. Bloomberg reported that O'Neal received a $161.5 million parachute in stock awards and retirement benefits.

Home Depot CEO Robert Nardelli was given about $210 million in severance pay after he was let go in 2006. During his five-year role as head of the company, the stock price declined 8 percent.

In fact, Apotheker's severance package did not even match that of his two predecessors at HP, Mark Hurd and Carly Fiorina. Both walked away from the company with severance packages near $40 million, although Hurd waived the right to most of that money when he became co-president of Oracle. Yet both Fiorina and Hurd served as CEO for a far longer period of time than Apotheker.
This is just a few short term CEO's in less than a 5 year period. It's not like they founded the company or were the inspirational genius behind their products like Jobs. They didn't create value in the least. They lost value.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:00 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by jspchief View Post
Which is nowhere near the same subject as the OP.
Profit margins for any business.....mean nothing, without closely examining their ledgers.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:01 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by banyon View Post
Apple's a great example in your favor of a CEO who deserves to perhaps be overcompensated, but there are probably many more on the other side of the ledger. Look at their competitor HP, for example:



This is just a few short term CEO's in less than a 5 year period. It's not like they founded the company or were the inspirational genius behind their products like Jobs. They didn't create value in the least. They lost value.
Are you an HP shareholder? If not, why do you care that he negotiated a sweet deal when he was hired?
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:04 PM   #71
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It's a shame that this was immediately moved from the Forum, BTW. It's a great example of the type of debate/discussion that can exist.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:07 PM   #72
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Okay, I just gave ExxonMobil's numbers. Is that an example of an overpaid CEO?

And, you are aware that you can invest in these companies, right?
Their previous CEO? Absolutely. I don't know what the current guy makes, but I'm guessing you don't get the benefit of seeing his severance package or stock options ahead of time on a public site.



Lee R. Raymond
Quote:
Anger at oil chief's $400m retirement package

Lee Raymond, the chief executive of Exxon Mobil, has bowed out from the oil giant with a $400m pay and retirement deal that has caused outrage among environmentalists. In his 12 years at the top of the company, Exxon has pumped an estimated six billion tons of carbon into the atmosphere and has led the opposition to action on climate change

By Stephen Foley

Thursday, 1 June 2006


Investors and environmental campaigners condemned a $400m (214m) retirement package for the boss of Exxon Mobil, the man known as the "Darth Vader of global warming" for his denial that carbon emissions cause climate change.

Protesters descended on the annual shareholder meeting of the world's largest oil company's in Dallas, Texas, amid fury over the lavish lifestyle that it plans to fund for Lee Raymond, who retired after 12 years as chairman and chief executive.


Exxon has been condemned by green groups for fuelling the world's addiction to oil by opposing the Kyoto treaty on reducing emissions and refusing to invest a penny in alternative energy sources. The total amount of carbon released into the atmosphere by the production and use of Exxon's oil and gas output is calculated at 500 million tons a year, or six billion tons during Mr Raymond's tenure.

Since becoming chief executive in 1993, Mr Raymond had become infamous for his dismissive response to environmental lobbyists at previous annual meetings. He has funnelled $19m of Exxon's money to groups that question the science of global warming. His package of pension and perks includes a bodyguard, a car and driver, and use of a company jet, plus a $1m-a-year deal to stay on as a consultant.

Exxon says the value of the package is at least $258m, which comes on top of a retirement bonus of $98.4m. This largesse makes his salary and bonus for 2005, $49m, look modest by comparison, but it was still one of the biggest pay deals for an executive last year and it has stoked claims that big oil companies are profiteering from the soaring price of crude. Exxon made a profit of $36.1bn in 2005, the biggest ever by any company in the world.

Up to 100 protesters gathered outside the Morton H Meyerson Symphony Centre in downtown Dallas to bang drums and chant slogans, including "Pumping global warming lies" and "No planet, no dividends".

Shawnee Hoover, the director of the Exxpose Exxon coalition of environmental groups, said the size of Mr Raymond's retirement package had crystallised anger against the company, the squeeze on oil prices and the company's increasingly isolated stance on alternative energy.

Even President George Bush, a significant beneficiary of funding from Exxon while he was the governor of Texas, now says high oil prices should prompt investment in sustainable energy. "It is not only that Exxon is making record corporate profits," Ms Hoover said, "but also that it is paying its chief executives some of the highest compensation packages that have been seen. While ordinary families and businesses are struggling under the weight of the high oil price, Exxon Mobil has been a key architect of keeping America addicted to oil and to keeping the status quo."

Exxpose Exxon is encouraging consumers to boycott Exxon Mobil's service stations, which include the Esso brand. The coalition includes Friends of the Earth, the Union of Concerned Scientists and Greenpeace, which has disrupted Exxon board meetings and speeches by Mr Raymond over several years.

Ben Stewart, of Greenpeace UK, said: "Exxon bosses are the Darth Vaders of global warming. They have run a 50-year-long campaign of dirty tricks designed to block action on the greatest threat to humanity. In years to come, the campaign by this company will be regarded as nothing less than a crime. There are striking parallels with the propaganda campaigns run by tobacco companies in the Sixties, but the damage done by this company could be much greater." Richard Heede, of Climate Mitigation Services - whose Friends of the Earth-commissioned report attempted to calculate Exxon's total carbon dioxide and methane emissions, plus those of end customers burning its oil and gas - said Exxon was still responsible for at least 500 million tons of carbon a year.

Mr Raymond routinely accuses advocates of a link between global warming and carbon emissions of practising fuzzy science. His first action as a senior executive was to cut solar and other alternative energy programmes because they did not seem likely to make money for decades.

His successor, Rex Tillerson, who took over at the start of the year, has attempted to put a more congenial face on Exxon's stance. The company still argues that the link between emissions and global warming rests on the assertion of expert scientists rather than on robust scientific models. He told shareholders: "The level of misinformation only makes it more important to discuss the massive scale of our industry and the meaningful alternatives available in the foreseeable future."

Investors lambasted Exxon's board for Mr Raymond's retirement package, and several said they would withhold their support for the re-election of directors on the remuneration committee. Others argued refusing to invest in renewable energy would condemn the company to extinction. Resolutions proposed by green groups attracted more support than in previous years but were still defeated.

Exxon said: "Operating in an environmentally responsible manner has long been and continues to be a primary focus for ExxonMobil. This includes... regular dialogue with local communities, and research to understand the impacts of air quality on health."
http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...ge-480602.html
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:08 PM   #73
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Are you an HP shareholder? If not, why do you care that he negotiated a sweet deal when he was hired?
Because it's essentially a form of hidden theft against those regular shareholders.

We should all care about it.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:10 PM   #74
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No one forces me to buy gasoline. No one forces you to buy gasoline.

If you have an issue with the low PM's the stores and "Big Oil" makes, stop buying their product.
I missed this post, but of course oil is an inelastic good, and solar powered highway-safe vehicles are neither affordable nor plentiful.

But yes, If I had a viable alternative, I would take it.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:11 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by banyon View Post
Their previous CEO? Absolutely. I don't know what the current guy makes, but I'm guessing you don't get the benefit of seeing his severance package or stock options ahead of time on a public site.



Lee R. Raymond


http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/2265...eker.htm?cid=2
I don't really put much stock (pun intended) in what a bunch of tree-huggers think about the CEO of an energy company.

If I were a stock holder and had a massive return on my investment during Raymond's tenure, I wouldn't care what his retirement benefit was. He also worked there for 40-something years. I'll have to look up the details.
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