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Old 10-19-2011, 09:42 AM  
TEX TEX is offline
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Gas Price Question?

I see that the price of oil went up a bit overnight and the price of gasoline immediately followed. Up a few cents from yesterday, which is up a few cents from the day before. And up about .10 cents since last week. I was wondering how come when the price of oil falls, it takes awhile for the price of gasoline to fall? A local TV station in Houston did a story on this and reported that the price of the gas at the station has already been paid for so when the price of oil falls, the savings at the pump is not reflected until the supply on hand is expired. Why isn't that the case in reverse?
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:35 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by banyon View Post
I didn't mean on every operation of the business. Just on executive compensation. Why couldn't that be done?
Why should it be done?
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:37 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
I don't get how you would know if their salary is affecting stock prices, or dividends. Are you assuming their salary is costing shareholders?
I think that's certainly possible, yes.

Quote:
When General Motors cites retiree costs, the giant auto maker has a point: It owed nearly 700,000 U.S. workers and retirees pensions that totaled $87.8 billion at the end of last year.

But $95.3 billion had already been set aside to pay those benefits when due.

All of these assets are earning investment returns, which offset the pensions' expense. GM lost $10.6 billion in 2005. But deep as its losses have been, they would have been far worse without the more than $10 billion per year in investment income that the GM pension plan for the rank and file generates.

The pension plan for GM executives is another matter. Unfunded to the tune of $1.4 billion, it detracts from GM's bottom line each year.

Just how much is a mystery, because GM doesn't break out the figure. It said executive pensions are "a very small portion of our overall expense" but declined to give the figure.

Earlier this year, GM announced it would freeze the pensions of its 42,000 salaried workers starting next January, as well as of those 5,200 highly paid employees. The freeze of the executive pensions will cut GM's pension liability by $60 million, while its freeze of salaried workers will yield a far bigger reduction, $1.6 billion.

A spokeswoman for GM said its concerns about its pension plans have eased, though the company remains concerned about retiree health-care costs. With the pension freeze and improved returns on its pension assets, including billions of dollars GM has contributed to the plans in recent years, "I would say pension really is not a problem any more," the spokeswoman said. She said that GM has no fixed obligation to pay the executive benefits and could renege at any time, although she called such a move unlikely.

GM has often said its U.S. pension plans added about $800 to the cost of each car made in the U.S. in 2004. It declines to say how much was due to executive pensions.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06177/701286-28.stm
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:39 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock View Post
Why should it be done?
Because it puts the decision in the hands of those who actually stand to lose from the company's performance as opposed to people's golfing buddies?
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:47 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by banyon View Post
Because it puts the decision in the hands of those who actually stand to lose from the company's performance as opposed to people's golfing buddies?
rank and file employees get a vote too? Because they stand to lose a lot more than the average investor.
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:51 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock View Post
rank and file employees get a vote too? Because they stand to lose a lot more than the average investor.
That wouldn't be something I would object to.
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:27 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEX View Post
I see that the price of oil went up a bit overnight and the price of gasoline immediately followed. Up a few cents from yesterday, which is up a few cents from the day before. And up about .10 cents since last week. I was wondering how come when the price of oil falls, it takes awhile for the price of gasoline to fall? A local TV station in Houston did a story on this and reported that the price of the gas at the station has already been paid for so when the price of oil falls, the savings at the pump is not reflected until the supply on hand is expired. Why isn't that the case in reverse?
because they can

even my 12 year old understands that
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:32 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyko Tek View Post
because they can

even my 12 year old understands that
Smart kid. Bet you learn a lot from him then...
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Old 10-20-2011, 05:22 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
I don't get how you would know if their salary is affecting stock prices, or dividends. Are you assuming their salary is costing shareholders?

Well, obviously their salary "costs" shareholders in the sense that it is an expense and therefore lowers profits. But, just as obviously, you have to have officers and they have to lead the company, so it's a necessary expense. The question is whether the officers in any given case add more value than they cost in salary/bonuses/options, etc., or it's a wash, or it's a net negative.

Ken Lay added value until it was realized that, no, actually, he wasn't a net plus for shareholders to say the least. Steve Jobs was worth 10x whatever the hell Apple was paying him. Ditto for Bill Gates (much as I despise him and Microsoft).
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:14 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banyon View Post
Seems like your link admits there's a real phenomenon of consumers getting squeezed.



Mainly it sounds like they use one rationale when the price of oil goes up and a different pricing rationale when price of oil goes down. Whichever screws the consumer the most.

It's supposed to be free market supply and demand, right? The SAME pricing laws?
It's called business. They exist to make money. If you don't like it, don't use their product. Ride a bicycle. Sucks sometimes, but that's life.
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:23 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Well, obviously their salary "costs" shareholders in the sense that it is an expense and therefore lowers profits. But, just as obviously, you have to have officers and they have to lead the company, so it's a necessary expense. The question is whether the officers in any given case add more value than they cost in salary/bonuses/options, etc., or it's a wash, or it's a net negative.

Ken Lay added value until it was realized that, no, actually, he wasn't a net plus for shareholders to say the least. Steve Jobs was worth 10x whatever the hell Apple was paying him. Ditto for Bill Gates (much as I despise him and Microsoft).
I guess my point is that banyon's saying their salaries and bonuses should be regulated out of fairness to the shareholders, but I don't know that you can show that these salaries are affecting share price, or reducing dividends. I'm sure people much smarter than I am have examined it.
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:49 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by banyon View Post
Are you disagreeing that Profit margin = Revenues-Total Costs / Revenues?

Or are you now agreeing with me that it is more complicated than that?

It is my position, that even though these are "public companies", they have become largely unresponsive and unaccountable to regular (non-institutional) shareholders.
If you recharacterized the salaries of a Big Oil corporations top management as profit instead of an expense and recalculated the corp's profit margin, do you really think it would change much? I don't.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:01 PM   #117
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If I lived in a liberal state with high teacher salaries and publicly backed benefits and pensions, like NJ or CT, you might have a point. In a conservative state, with entirely self-funded retirements and benefits and the lowest salaries in the country (check it if you want)? Your reasoning is laughable.

If you want to play the "we STILL pay your salary" baloney...where would you get cheaper daycare?
So then you admit it, you are there to provide daycare, not to teach? How pitifully sad that you see yourself that way.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:52 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Calcountry View Post
So then you admit it, you are there to provide daycare, not to teach? How pitifully sad that you see yourself that way.


What's sad is that you would think the projection that conservatives like you use to demean educators, is accepted by any of us who work in the trenches.

Not surprised the TIC sarcasm is lost on you though. You better rush off now to call Rush or Glenn to see what they would have to say about this. Heh.
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Old 10-20-2011, 02:38 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaise View Post
I guess my point is that banyon's saying their salaries and bonuses should be regulated out of fairness to the shareholders, but I don't know that you can show that these salaries are affecting share price, or reducing dividends. I'm sure people much smarter than I am have examined it.
isn't that what the board of directors are for? The boards roles is to look out for the shareholder. When the cost of an executive outweighs the deliverables or fails to meet the expectations, he/she is fired from the job.

regulating pay who thinks this stuff up?
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