Any fishkeepers here? Saltwater or freshwater

[Silock]

I'm looking at starting up a saltwater tank. Is there a good fish store in the KC area without driving out to Lawrence?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Silock

And are you sure about plants not absorbing ammonia? Everything I've read says they can absorb both ammonia and nitrates.

http://thegab.org/Plants/setting-up-...nted-tank.html

http://www.rexgrigg.com/cycle.htm

I'm not sure how plants could absorb ammonia.

Everything I've ever known about marine plants anyway is that they only work with Nitrates. Things like chaeto algae, calupra and mangrove plants all serve to knock your nitrates down but they don't do anything for ammonia.

Nitrates aren't really that big a worry though, especially not for fish. Nitrate levels can get insanely high without having an impact on your fish, especially if you keep everything else within acceptable limits.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I'm not sure how plants could absorb ammonia.

Technically, they use ammonium (NH4+) more readily, but ammonia (NH3) has no charge, so it passes through plant cells easily, where it bonds with free H+ to become easily digested NH4+.

But I'm only going to be putting 1-2 fish in there to begin with, and cheap ones at that, so if this experiment doesn't work, then no biggie.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

The fact is that it still can't kill ich. Ich Attack can essentially nurse your fish through an infection, but anything that 'kills' ich is going to wipe out a reef.

If it doesn't actually kill the ich, why would it remove any trace of an infection 2-3 times faster than raising the temperature (which essentially just speeds up the ich lifecycle)?

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

Silock, any of the cycling methods the others suggested will work. But honestly, no matter what method you choose, seriously consider doing it the humane way w/o the use of fishes... trust me!

It might seem inhumane to have a couple of fish suffer through the cycle but the alternatives are far less humane. Any other type of cycling just isn't "natural" and while the outcome may be okay most of the time, the times that it isn't usually result in tearing the whole thing down, sterilizing, and starting over. Saprolegnia fungus, for example, is nearly impossible to get rid of once it gets established.

Originally Posted by Lumpy

The last time I used the 10g, I was treating 2 of my fishes that had Columnaris. I used MaracynII and my bacteria was still intact. I think as long as you use meds that don't alter your cycle, you will be fine. Otherwise, it's a waste to move filter media over if the meds are going to mess w/ your bacteria. I also use Prime when adding new water, (to my main tanks, and my QT).

Columnaris and some other infections respond to Maracyn, which won't harm your bio filtration. Aeromonas, on the other hand, won't likely respond to Maracyn and drugs like Erythromycin (which should be a last resort) will destroy your biofilter. I'm not a biologist but it has to do with gram-positive vs. gram-negative bacteria.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

I've only known about plants reducing Nitrates, not Ammonia. In fact, that's the main reason why I went w/ a planted tank. Thanks to someone at the pet store telling me that I only needed to do a water change once a month, my Nitrates reached a whopping 160ppm! How my fishes didn't croak is beyond me!

But since then, I have been maintaining a strict 50% water change once a week and my Nitrates stay around 40ppm. The plants have helped quite a bit in maintaining the level, but IME, they are not lowering the Nitrate level like I had hoped. In short, I wouldn't put too much faith in live plants helping w/ your cycle.

I've got so many plants I only do a water change every 6 weeks or so and my nitrates rarely get over 25 ppm.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Everything I've ever known about marine plants anyway is that they only work with Nitrates. Things like chaeto algae, calupra and mangrove plants all serve to knock your nitrates down but they don't do anything for ammonia.

It's the same with FW plants as far as I know. I don't ever have any free NH3 so I don't know...

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

If it doesn't actually kill the ich, why would it remove any trace of an infection 2-3 times faster than raising the temperature (which essentially just speeds up the ich lifecycle)?

It doesn't, apart from the fact that it makes your fish healthier and their slime coat kicks off the parasites and prevents re-attachment. There may not be 'traces' of the infection, but the ich is still there.

Do an experiment - treat your display tank with ich-attack for the proscribed period. Then go the the LFS and buy a new fish. Put him in quarantine for however long you'd like and treat however you'd like to get him 'clean'.

I can virtually guarantee you that the moment you put him in your display, he'll show ich. The ich in your display tank was never dead; it was simply dormant or otherwise kept under control by the immune system of the fish in the tank.

Anything, absolutely anything, that can truly kill a parasite that amounts to nothing more than a microscopic crustacean, is going to obliterate more than just said parasite.

If there was a truly reef-safe method to kill ich, it wouldn't be a 'recommendation' by anyone; it would be an order. There wouldn't be 'suggested' forms of treatment like QT or hypo-salinity; you'd just use that stuff. It would completely revolutionize the fishkeeping industry.

It simply doesn't exist. There is nothing on the market, and IMO never will be, that can kill ich in a reef tank without annihilating your invertebrate population and destroying your live-rock. There's no way to target-kill ich without also irreparably damaging your biological system, mobile and sessile invertebrates.

[Lumpy]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

I've got so many plants I only do a water change every 6 weeks or so and my nitrates rarely get over 25 ppm.

Must be nice, but remember that I have a foot-long Pleco crapping all over the place. If I could find a home for that guy, it would decrease my bio-load so I wouldn't need to do so many water changes.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

It might seem inhumane to have a couple of fish suffer through the cycle but the alternatives are far less humane. Any other type of cycling just isn't "natural" and while the outcome may be okay most of the time, the times that it isn't usually result in tearing the whole thing down, sterilizing, and starting over. Saprolegnia fungus, for example, is nearly impossible to get rid of once it gets established.

Most fishless cycles advocate just using straight up ammonia. What's wrong with that, if the idea is just to grow the beneficial bacteria?

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

Must be nice, but remember that I have a foot-long Pleco crapping all over the place. If I could find a home for that guy, it would decrease my bio-load so I wouldn't need to do so many water changes.

I have about 40 fish ranging in size from 1" otocinclus to 3.5" mollies and false Siamese algae eaters in a 55G tank.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Silock

Most fishless cycles advocate just using straight up ammonia. What's wrong with that, if the idea is just to grow the beneficial bacteria?

Because there's no bacteria. Without the presence of some biological entity to "infect" the tank, the NH3 just sits there and does nothing. Ultimately, the bacteria has to come from the air, etc.. You have to be really patient with the ammonia method because it takes much longer than most other methods.

The other advantage of using fish is that, as you add them over time, your bacterial bed adjusts the population to support the bio-load of your tank. People that cycle with ammonia (or fish food or shrimp) often find that they have to re-cycle when they add fish because they didn't use enough to get a big enough biofilter to accomodate the number of fish they added.

Now the big advantage of pure ammonia over fish food or shrimp is that there's virtually zero chance of introducing Saprolegnia fungus.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

It doesn't, apart from the fact that it makes your fish healthier and their slime coat kicks off the parasites and prevents re-attachment. There may not be 'traces' of the infection, but the ich is still there.

Do an experiment - treat your display tank with ich-attack for the proscribed period. Then go the the LFS and buy a new fish. Put him in quarantine for however long you'd like and treat however you'd like to get him 'clean'.

I can virtually guarantee you that the moment you put him in your display, he'll show ich. The ich in your display tank was never dead; it was simply dormant or otherwise kept under control by the immune system of the fish in the tank.

Anything, absolutely anything, that can truly kill a parasite that amounts to nothing more than a microscopic crustacean, is going to obliterate more than just said parasite.

If there was a truly reef-safe method to kill ich, it wouldn't be a 'recommendation' by anyone; it would be an order. There wouldn't be 'suggested' forms of treatment like QT or hypo-salinity; you'd just use that stuff. It would completely revolutionize the fishkeeping industry.

It simply doesn't exist. There is nothing on the market, and IMO never will be, that can kill ich in a reef tank without annihilating your invertebrate population and destroying your live-rock. There's no way to target-kill ich without also irreparably damaging your biological system, mobile and sessile invertebrates.

To be fair, you're talking about marine tanks and I'm not. There's a considerable amount of science around the use of Napthoquinones to kill freshwater protozoans.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

To be fair, you're talking about marine tanks and I'm not. There's a considerable amount of science around the use of Napthoquinones to kill freshwater protozoans.

Ah.

That's absolutely right. The freshwater ich is 'killed' by ich-treatments.

Marine Ich isn't. In fact, marine ich really shouldn't be called ich at all, but unfortunately the name stuck.

They're about as similar as cancer and the clap.

[Lumpy]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

I have about 40 fish ranging in size from 1" otocinclus to 3.5" mollies and false Siamese algae eaters in a 55G tank.

Translation: I has a lot of teh poopz too.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Ah.

That's absolutely right. The freshwater ich is 'killed' by ich-treatments.

Marine Ich isn't. In fact, marine ich really shouldn't be called ich at all, but unfortunately the name stuck.

They're about as similar as cancer and the clap.

Isn't it actually oodinium or something like that?