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Old 03-08-2012, 11:50 AM  
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Neighborhood watch captain shoots innocent black youth and doesn't even get arrested

http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida...044537742.html




ORLANDO, Florida (Reuters) - The family of a 17-year-old African-American boy shot to death last month in his gated Florida community by a white Neighborhood Watch captain wants to see the captain arrested, the family's lawyer said on Wednesday.

Trayvon Martin was shot dead after he took a break from watching NBA All-Star game television coverage to walk 10 minutes to a convenience store to buy snacks including Skittles candy requested by his 13-year-old brother, Chad, the family's lawyer Ben Crump said.

"He was a good kid," Crump said in an interview, adding that the family would issue a call for the Watch captain's arrest at a news conference on Thursday. "On his way home, a Neighborhood Watch loose cannon shot and killed him."

[Related: Fla. teen avoids deportation]

Trayvon, who lived in Miami with his mother, had been visiting his father and stepmother in a gated townhome community called The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford, 20 miles north of Orlando.

As Trayvon returned to the townhome, Sanford police received a 911 call reporting a suspicious person.

Although names are blacked out on the police report, Crump and media reports at the time of the shooting identified the caller as George Zimmerman who is listed in the community's newsletter as the Neighborhood Watch captain.

Without waiting for police to arrive, Crump said, Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk near his home. By the time police got there, Trayvon was dead of a single gunshot to the chest.

"What do the police find in his pocket? Skittles," Crump said. "A can of Arizona ice tea in his jacket pocket and Skittles in his front pocket for his brother Chad."

Zimmerman could not be reached for comment on Wednesday evening at a phone number listed for him on the community's newsletter.

Crump said the family was concerned that police might decide to consider the shooting as self defense, and that police have ignored the family's request for a copy of the original 911 call, which they think will shed light on the incidents.

"If the 911 protocol across the country held to form here, they told him not to get involved. He disobeyed that order," said Ryan Julison, a spokesman for the family.

"He (Zimmerman) didn't have to get out of his car," said Crump, who has prepared a public records lawsuit to file on Thursday if the family doesn't get the 911 tape. "If he never gets out of his car, there is no reason for self-defense. Trayvon only has skittles. He has the gun."

Since Trayvon, a high school junior who wanted to be a pilot, was black and Zimmerman is white, Crump said race is "the 600 pound elephant in the room."

"Why is this kid suspicious in the first place? I think a stereotype must have been placed on the kid," Crump said.

(Editing By Cynthia Johnston and Peter Bohan)

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Old 04-23-2012, 07:10 PM   #3181
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Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
Exactly, definitely hot heads. However, if he had gotten out of the line of sight of zimmerman, how is it's zimmermans fault that he doubled back and attacked him?
You'd have to buy into the idea that Zimmerman is telling the truth that he was walking back to his car. I think that's a load of crap. Again, I think it was two hotheads who should have backed away, and they both got themselves into a scuffle they shouldn't have gotten into. Zimmerman is just as much to blame--he was clearly trained about his responsibilities and that very clearly stated that he was not to pursue suspicious persons. We can't view him as an ordinary citizen.
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:40 PM   #3182
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
It all comes down to the person who instigated the actual FIGHT. Something I doubt we will ever truly know. If Martin threw the first punch and was slamming Zimmerman's head in the ground, then Z was completely within his rights. If Z put his hands on Martin or forced a confrontation, they he bears culpability. Depending on how things went down at that point, he would at least be guilty of manslaughter.

It is NOT enough to say... "well, Zimmerman shouldn't have followed him, etc etc." That's bullshit and piss poor logic. If that were the legal or even MORAL standard, then we should all just lock ourselves in our panic rooms for fear of pissing anyone off.
BAXLEY: Well, simply because if you carefully read the statute, which most of the critics have not, and read the legislative analysis, there's nothing in this statute that authorizes you to pursue or confront other people. If anything, this law would have protected the victim in this case; it could have.
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:44 PM   #3183
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Originally Posted by chiefsfootballfan View Post
BAXLEY: Well, simply because if you carefully read the statute, which most of the critics have not, and read the legislative analysis, there's nothing in this statute that authorizes you to pursue or confront other people. If anything, this law would have protected the victim in this case; it could have.
I don't see how that's even relevant if Trayvon doubled back and jumped Zimmerman like it looks like is what happened.
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:58 PM   #3184
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Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy View Post
I don't see how that's even relevant if Trayvon doubled back and jumped Zimmerman like it looks like is what happened.
well, in your world of make believe, you have a point. but between us in the real world where the facts are that this shooting occurred where GZ found TM, you don't.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:16 PM   #3185
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Originally Posted by chiefsfootballfan View Post
well, in your world of make believe, you have a point. but between us in the real world where the facts are that this shooting occurred where GZ found TM, you don't.
Link?
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:58 PM   #3186
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
You'd have to buy into the idea that Zimmerman is telling the truth that he was walking back to his car. I think that's a load of crap. Again, I think it was two hotheads who should have backed away, and they both got themselves into a scuffle they shouldn't have gotten into. Zimmerman is just as much to blame--he was clearly trained about his responsibilities and that very clearly stated that he was not to pursue suspicious persons. We can't view him as an ordinary citizen.
That seems an awful lot like changing the rules to fit a judgement that someone already made.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:00 PM   #3187
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Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy View Post
I don't see how that's even relevant if Trayvon doubled back and jumped Zimmerman like it looks like is what happened.
You don't see the relevance of Travyn jumping Zimmerman in the realm of self defense?
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:12 PM   #3188
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Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
You don't see the relevance of Travyn jumping Zimmerman in the realm of self defense?
I sure do. I was referring to the quote about SYG. It wasn't about standing his ground anymore. It was about fearing for his life.

Again it comes back to what AustinChief said. It's all about who threw first.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:22 PM   #3189
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Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy View Post
I sure do. I was referring to the quote about SYG. It wasn't about standing his ground anymore. It was about fearing for his life.

Again it comes back to what AustinChief said. It's all about who threw first.
If we're talking civil trial, it certainly becomes relevant that Zimmerman's breach of responsibility initiated a conflict that never needed to happen. I think the criminal trial will be difficult for the Martins to win, but I think in a civil trial, somebody is going to have to pay the Martins.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:18 AM   #3190
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Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy View Post
I sure do. I was referring to the quote about SYG. It wasn't about standing his ground anymore. It was about fearing for his life.

Again it comes back to what AustinChief said. It's all about who threw first.
At what point do you allow Martin to stand his ground against an unknown person to him, with unknown intentions that continues to pursue after Trayvon made the attempt to flee from the unknown individual?

Zimmerman's supporters keep trying to justify his actions by trying to judge his frame of mind. By using excuses like, I didn't know he was a child, I didn't know he wasn't armed. Yet, what they fail to do is look into what could have been the frame of mind of Trayvon and how he could have felt in fear of his life as well from being followed by an unknown person with unknown intentions who continued to pursue after making an attempt to flee.

Let me ask you this. You are walking down the street under the cover of darkness doing nothing criminal. You have an individual that you have never seen before following you. That individual gets out of his personal vehicle and pursues you on foot. You flee from unknown individual because you are unaware of the persons intentions. The unknown individual continues pursuit. At what point do you feel your life may be in danger?
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:06 AM   #3191
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Originally Posted by chiefsfootballfan View Post
well, in your world of make believe, you have a point. but between us in the real world where the facts are that this shooting occurred where GZ found TM, you don't.
The facts? Like the fact that Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Trayvon after the 911 dispatcher told him not to? Oh wait, that's not a fact anymore. He was already out of the car and following him when the dispatcher said not to.

Or the fact that a white guy shot a black kid. Oh wait, that's right, he's hispanic.

Or the fact that he was a "self appointed" neighborhood watch guy. Oh wait, now we're saying he was appointed by the homes association and trained by them.

Or the fact there were no signs of a fight according to some grainy far away video. Oh wait, there are pictures of signs of a fight now.

We can go on and on with this. The "facts" keep changing. And so does the bar that is set for conviction by those who want to see Zimmerman jailed.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:27 AM   #3192
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The facts? Like the fact that Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Trayvon after the 911 dispatcher told him not to? Oh wait, that's not a fact anymore. He was already out of the car and following him when the dispatcher said not to.
There is a powerpoint presentation that Zimmerman saw that clearly said he was not to follow a suspicious person... period. The 911 dispatcher shouldn't have had to say anything. Zimmerman should have already known. And you are making a huge assumption that when the 911 dispatcher told him he didn't need to pursue Trayvon that Zimmerman stopped pursuit. The only proof of that is that Zimmerman said so. Of course he's going to say so.

Quote:
Or the fact that a white guy shot a black kid. Oh wait, that's right, he's hispanic.
Agreed. The race thing got out of hand.

Quote:
Or the fact that he was a "self appointed" neighborhood watch guy. Oh wait, now we're saying he was appointed by the homes association and trained by them.
This is absolutely critical, especially from a civil perspective, because it shows that Zimmerman should have had the capacity to know better. He wasn't just named to that role in title. The HOA told condo association members that Zimmerman was the guy. Zimmerman was briefed by the police on his responsibilities. And there were flyers that directly said Zimmerman was the guy to go to if there was a report of suspicious persons.

Quote:
Or the fact there were no signs of a fight according to some grainy far away video. Oh wait, there are pictures of signs of a fight now.
And there is still no proof of who instigated the fight. But fully agree that it's impossible for anyone to think Trayvon didn't have a large role in this, and very difficult to say that Zimmerman didn't have reason to shoot him. I continue to question if Zimmerman provoked a fight that shouldn't have happened in the first place. It completely deflates the purpose of Stand Your Ground if you're going to start shit and then claim self defense when the guy starts back (this is assuming that Zimmerman did something to provoke Trayvon).

Quote:
We can go on and on with this. The "facts" keep changing. And so does the bar that is set for conviction by those who want to see Zimmerman jailed.
The facts keep changing and it doesn't look good for the Martins. But conviction isn't the only thing that's going to hurt Zimmerman. I think the guy's going to have a tough time defend himself against civil charges.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:38 AM   #3193
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Originally Posted by RubberSponge View Post
At what point do you allow Martin to stand his ground against an unknown person to him, with unknown intentions that continues to pursue after Trayvon made the attempt to flee from the unknown individual?

Zimmerman's supporters keep trying to justify his actions by trying to judge his frame of mind. By using excuses like, I didn't know he was a child, I didn't know he wasn't armed. Yet, what they fail to do is look into what could have been the frame of mind of Trayvon and how he could have felt in fear of his life as well from being followed by an unknown person with unknown intentions who continued to pursue after making an attempt to flee.

Let me ask you this. You are walking down the street under the cover of darkness doing nothing criminal. You have an individual that you have never seen before following you. That individual gets out of his personal vehicle and pursues you on foot. You flee from unknown individual because you are unaware of the persons intentions. The unknown individual continues pursuit. At what point do you feel your life may be in danger?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Trayvon had already gotten away from Zimmerman. The altercation most likely occured when Trayvon decided to double back and attack Zimmerman. At that point he became the agressor.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:12 AM   #3194
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Originally Posted by jjjayb View Post
The facts? Like the fact that Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Trayvon after the 911 dispatcher told him not to? Oh wait, that's not a fact anymore. He was already out of the car and following him when the dispatcher said not to.

Or the fact that a white guy shot a black kid. Oh wait, that's right, he's hispanic.

Or the fact that he was a "self appointed" neighborhood watch guy. Oh wait, now we're saying he was appointed by the homes association and trained by them.

Or the fact there were no signs of a fight according to some grainy far away video. Oh wait, there are pictures of signs of a fight now.

We can go on and on with this. The "facts" keep changing. And so does the bar that is set for conviction by those who want to see Zimmerman jailed.

"At 7:13, two minutes into Zimmerman's call, he tells the police operator: "S , he's running."

A beeping sound is heard, indicating that he has opened his car door."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...infacts02.html
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:13 AM   #3195
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Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Trayvon had already gotten away from Zimmerman. The altercation most likely occured when Trayvon decided to double back and attack Zimmerman. At that point he became the agressor.
That only works if you believe Zimmerman ran down and confronted Martin only to turn around and walk back to his truck.
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