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Old 03-08-2012, 11:50 AM  
Bump Bump is offline
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Neighborhood watch captain shoots innocent black youth and doesn't even get arrested

http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida...044537742.html




ORLANDO, Florida (Reuters) - The family of a 17-year-old African-American boy shot to death last month in his gated Florida community by a white Neighborhood Watch captain wants to see the captain arrested, the family's lawyer said on Wednesday.

Trayvon Martin was shot dead after he took a break from watching NBA All-Star game television coverage to walk 10 minutes to a convenience store to buy snacks including Skittles candy requested by his 13-year-old brother, Chad, the family's lawyer Ben Crump said.

"He was a good kid," Crump said in an interview, adding that the family would issue a call for the Watch captain's arrest at a news conference on Thursday. "On his way home, a Neighborhood Watch loose cannon shot and killed him."

[Related: Fla. teen avoids deportation]

Trayvon, who lived in Miami with his mother, had been visiting his father and stepmother in a gated townhome community called The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford, 20 miles north of Orlando.

As Trayvon returned to the townhome, Sanford police received a 911 call reporting a suspicious person.

Although names are blacked out on the police report, Crump and media reports at the time of the shooting identified the caller as George Zimmerman who is listed in the community's newsletter as the Neighborhood Watch captain.

Without waiting for police to arrive, Crump said, Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk near his home. By the time police got there, Trayvon was dead of a single gunshot to the chest.

"What do the police find in his pocket? Skittles," Crump said. "A can of Arizona ice tea in his jacket pocket and Skittles in his front pocket for his brother Chad."

Zimmerman could not be reached for comment on Wednesday evening at a phone number listed for him on the community's newsletter.

Crump said the family was concerned that police might decide to consider the shooting as self defense, and that police have ignored the family's request for a copy of the original 911 call, which they think will shed light on the incidents.

"If the 911 protocol across the country held to form here, they told him not to get involved. He disobeyed that order," said Ryan Julison, a spokesman for the family.

"He (Zimmerman) didn't have to get out of his car," said Crump, who has prepared a public records lawsuit to file on Thursday if the family doesn't get the 911 tape. "If he never gets out of his car, there is no reason for self-defense. Trayvon only has skittles. He has the gun."

Since Trayvon, a high school junior who wanted to be a pilot, was black and Zimmerman is white, Crump said race is "the 600 pound elephant in the room."

"Why is this kid suspicious in the first place? I think a stereotype must have been placed on the kid," Crump said.

(Editing By Cynthia Johnston and Peter Bohan)

Last edited by Bump; 07-12-2013 at 11:19 PM..
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:20 AM   #4126
JASONSAUTO JASONSAUTO is offline
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Are you talking about rules or LAWS?

did following the guy break a law? Did coloring the guy with a concealed weapon break a law?
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:36 AM   #4127
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
  • He was told to stand down by the 911 operator
  • He was told by Neighborhood Watch to never pursue the victim. He ignored that advice. Apparently ignored this multiple times
  • Was told by Neighborhood Watch to not carry a firearm while on duty. He ignored that advice (probably multiple times)
Those are not laws he broke. Thats just advise he did not take. bad advise IMO
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:38 AM   #4128
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Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO View Post
Are you talking about rules or LAWS?

did following the guy break a law? Did coloring the guy with a concealed weapon break a law?
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Advise.
Some peeps here I wont name ( chiefzilla1501 ) wanna convict on bad advise.
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:40 AM   #4129
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
I'm arguing against the dangerous precedent of gun owners hiding behind a self-defense law, if that means you give them license to break a million rules leading to an encounter that should have never happened in the first place. And the dangerous precedent of giving ordinary citizens this kind of police power, especially if they're carrying a gun they are very, very poorly trained to use.

CCW is a means of self defense. It isn't a means for playing vigilante. It isn't a means for proactively seeking out people you profile to be suspicious. If you want to protect yourself from people you believe to be suspicious fine. But Zimmerman wasn't doing that. If he did, he'd have stayed in his car. The minute he left the car and began following he changed from protecting himself to seeking an encounter.

I don't believe in banning guns, but I do believe in enforcing the rules in place. Zimmerman knew the rules, and he broke them. Many of them.
Those "rules" might be wise, but they're not laws that have to be enforced. Nor should they be.
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:45 AM   #4130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO View Post
Are you talking about rules or LAWS?

did following the guy break a law? Did coloring the guy with a concealed weapon break a law?
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I'm not a lawyer (but then most of us aren't...) so just my non-professional 2 cents.

The questions you ask are what make the case interesting and not as cut-and-dry as some people claim. If I'm on the prosecution, I'd question whether Zimmerman knew the "rules" well enough to be liable if he broke them.

From a legal side... I think that to CCW "on the job" you have to have a specific license that requires additional training. Zimmerman didn't have that. And piecing things together, he should have been well enough aware of the rules to realize that he can't CCW if he's on neighborhood watch duty. Like I've said, I think Zimmerman is found innocent. I don't think he should be charged with manslaughter, but there has to be some liability for a guy who believes he's above the rules.
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:47 AM   #4131
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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
Those are not laws he broke. Thats just advise he did not take. bad advise IMO
The bullet points are not as important as the piece about his obligations while CCW. The bullet points are only to reinforce that he is not to follow people around, let alone carry a firearm. So he was told multiple times and he can't claim ignorance.
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:55 AM   #4132
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
The bullet points are not as important as the piece about his obligations while CCW. The bullet points are only to reinforce that he is not to follow people around, let alone carry a firearm. So he was told multiple times and he can't claim ignorance.
Again rules made up by someone or LAWS?
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:56 AM   #4133
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If they aren't actual laws how would he get in trouble in a court of LAW?
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:02 AM   #4134
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Those "rules" might be wise, but they're not laws that have to be enforced. Nor should they be.
When you carry a weapon that can potentially kill somebody, there should be specific protocol for how that weapon is used. Both to protect the good gun owners who take that right seriously and accidentally got caught in something bad even though they followed the rules, and to hold accountable guys like Zimmerman who don't take the right seriously and use a gun to go on their own cowboy vigilante missions.

Ordinary citizens are not trained to follow people. They are not trained to understand how to manage conflicts and protect themselves during conflicts. So when untrained citizens are given power to police based on obscure "suspicious threats" you are increasing the chance that something is going to get ****ed up and a guy has to use his gun to defend himself. Especially when you have a guy with a history of a hot temper like Zimmerman.

The idea that gun owners should not be required to follow basic protocol or that vigilantes should have an incredibly loose rope for when they're allowed to step in is a scary, scary proposition.
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:08 AM   #4135
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Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO View Post
If they aren't actual laws how would he get in trouble in a court of LAW?
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I don't know how CCW is enforced in Florida. My understanding is that the state is ridiculously lax, which is why I've said I think Zimmerman is found innocent. Where I come from, there is a strict definition about justified use of deadly force, leading to criminal and/or civil liability charges. And that includes provoking a situation where deadly force was required.
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:09 AM   #4136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
When you carry a weapon that can potentially kill somebody, there should be specific protocol for how that weapon is used. Both to protect the good gun owners who take that right seriously and accidentally got caught in something bad even though they followed the rules, and to hold accountable guys like Zimmerman who don't take the right seriously and use a gun to go on their own cowboy vigilante missions.

Ordinary citizens are not trained to follow people. They are not trained to understand how to manage conflicts and protect themselves during conflicts. So when untrained citizens are given power to police based on obscure "suspicious threats" you are increasing the chance that something is going to get ****ed up and a guy has to use his gun to defend himself. Especially when you have a guy with a history of a hot temper like Zimmerman.

The idea that gun owners should not be required to follow basic protocol or that vigilantes should have an incredibly loose rope for when they're allowed to step in is a scary, scary proposition.
Would TM have slammed his head into the ground if he had known GZ had a gun?
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:12 AM   #4137
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Originally Posted by R8ers View Post
Would TM have slammed his head into the ground if he had known GZ had a gun?
If TM knew GZ had a gun (and that's very possible), then he has a right to defend himself too, don't you think?
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:14 AM   #4138
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
If TM knew GZ had a gun (and that's very possible), then he has a right to defend himself too, don't you think?
Yes but that's not what I asked you
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:15 AM   #4139
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You can't defend yourself from a gun that is not being pointed at you, You just can't slam a mans head in the concrete.
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:17 AM   #4140
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Yes but that's not what I asked you
I don't know what you're asking of me. Because you're laying out a situation where TM was absolutely justified in beating the crap out of GZ, because he may have felt that beating him unconscious was potentially the only way to avoid getting shot.
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