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Old 03-08-2012, 11:50 AM  
Bump Bump is offline
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Neighborhood watch captain shoots innocent black youth and doesn't even get arrested

http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida...044537742.html




ORLANDO, Florida (Reuters) - The family of a 17-year-old African-American boy shot to death last month in his gated Florida community by a white Neighborhood Watch captain wants to see the captain arrested, the family's lawyer said on Wednesday.

Trayvon Martin was shot dead after he took a break from watching NBA All-Star game television coverage to walk 10 minutes to a convenience store to buy snacks including Skittles candy requested by his 13-year-old brother, Chad, the family's lawyer Ben Crump said.

"He was a good kid," Crump said in an interview, adding that the family would issue a call for the Watch captain's arrest at a news conference on Thursday. "On his way home, a Neighborhood Watch loose cannon shot and killed him."

[Related: Fla. teen avoids deportation]

Trayvon, who lived in Miami with his mother, had been visiting his father and stepmother in a gated townhome community called The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford, 20 miles north of Orlando.

As Trayvon returned to the townhome, Sanford police received a 911 call reporting a suspicious person.

Although names are blacked out on the police report, Crump and media reports at the time of the shooting identified the caller as George Zimmerman who is listed in the community's newsletter as the Neighborhood Watch captain.

Without waiting for police to arrive, Crump said, Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk near his home. By the time police got there, Trayvon was dead of a single gunshot to the chest.

"What do the police find in his pocket? Skittles," Crump said. "A can of Arizona ice tea in his jacket pocket and Skittles in his front pocket for his brother Chad."

Zimmerman could not be reached for comment on Wednesday evening at a phone number listed for him on the community's newsletter.

Crump said the family was concerned that police might decide to consider the shooting as self defense, and that police have ignored the family's request for a copy of the original 911 call, which they think will shed light on the incidents.

"If the 911 protocol across the country held to form here, they told him not to get involved. He disobeyed that order," said Ryan Julison, a spokesman for the family.

"He (Zimmerman) didn't have to get out of his car," said Crump, who has prepared a public records lawsuit to file on Thursday if the family doesn't get the 911 tape. "If he never gets out of his car, there is no reason for self-defense. Trayvon only has skittles. He has the gun."

Since Trayvon, a high school junior who wanted to be a pilot, was black and Zimmerman is white, Crump said race is "the 600 pound elephant in the room."

"Why is this kid suspicious in the first place? I think a stereotype must have been placed on the kid," Crump said.

(Editing By Cynthia Johnston and Peter Bohan)

Last edited by Bump; 07-12-2013 at 11:19 PM..
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:21 PM   #5041
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Originally Posted by R8ers View Post
Defense argued for defendant to be acquitted by the Judge Friday, Judge said state has enough evidence to be determined by the Jury, almost before O'mara got the words out of his mouth... I don't think she wanted to hear the backlash against her by acquitting him but there is no way this case is a Beyond Reasonable Doubt case.
That's really not very remarkable. It would be remarkable if the defense had prevailed at that point.
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:31 PM   #5042
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I'm in agreement here. Perhaps there needs to be some very clear/more clear/standards for escalation of force in these type of laws.

My problem with the SYG is that it gives some otherwise impotent people the avenue to create the situation, escalate it, even if they dont mean to escalate it and have no repercussion when they take a life.

Clearly, I don't think George Zimmerman meant to kill. But IMO he created a situation that resulted in a needless death. It took a month and political pressure to bring the case to light. In the wake of this trial, I think the law should be reviewed and modified in the event this type of occurrence happens again. And it will.
Yup. Good post. I also think it's sparked some good underground debate about vigilantism and CCW protocol. Regardless of what side of the debate you're on, I've heard some really educated conversation about the topic on both sides.
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:34 PM   #5043
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Originally Posted by jjjayb View Post
Why is it ridiculous? The kid had two of the ingredients he used to make lean on him when he died. His facebook posts showed he liked to use lean. Lean can cause psychotic side effects Like pcp. Its a dangerous drug that very well could have affected his actions the night he was killed. Zimmerman even stated on the 911 call that trayvon was acting like he was on drugs.
That's like saying a person who buys water and baking soda is about to cook crack when he gets home.
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:50 PM   #5044
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Originally Posted by -King- View Post
That's like saying a person who buys water and baking soda is about to cook crack when he gets home.
If someone did crack, then that would be a logical assumption. If they didn't it would be illogical.
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:55 PM   #5045
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Originally Posted by -King- View Post
That's like saying a person who buys water and baking soda is about to cook crack when he gets home.
Cops will take you to jail for paraphernalia
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:08 PM   #5046
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Cops will take you to jail for paraphernalia
The better question is if carrying around less obvious paraphernalia gives you probable cause to aggressively pursue beyond an observe and report. The law says that it's okay for Zimmerman to pursue someone who looks suspicious.
Keep in mind he is licensed to CCW, but he isn't licensed to CCW in the way cops are. But protocol suggests that when you CCW, you need to be smart about when to go beyond an observe and report. Even if he was under the influence, is there enough in the story to suggest that Trayvon was a threat to Zimmerman or the home owner? It's a stretch that forces you to make a LOT of assumptions. One being... was he even under the influence at the time? And if he was intent on getting high, then why would he be any threat to break into someone's house vs. going straight home?

Several gun owners have gotten stung because they towed that line (and yes, unfairly, some have gotten stung when they were clearly acting in self defense). That's okay in isolation. But Zimmerman's pattern of behavior suggests this probably wasn't the first time he did something similar. That's what's most disturbing about his role here. It was only a matter of time before he was confronted with someone who fought back.

Right now, I think it takes a lot to believe that Trayvon was so up to no good that he posed a danger to Zimmerman's life or anybody else's life. If that's not the case, Zimmerman should have stayed in his car. Those are irrelevant for a murder trial, because that charge is completely stupid. But again, think it's brought up awesome dialogue about not treating a concealed firearm like a badge of courage and instead treat it like something you want to avoid using unless the situation presents itself.
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:19 PM   #5047
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
Right now, I think it takes a lot to believe that Trayvon was so up to no good that he posed a danger to Zimmerman's life or anybody else's life.

He was a danger to Zimmerman's life because he was pounding his head on the pavement, you ****ing moron.
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:20 PM   #5048
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He was a danger to Zimmerman's life because he was pounding his head on the pavement, you ****ing moron.
I've said about a bazillion times I have no problem with Zimmerman shooting Trayvon in self defense and that Trayvon was stupid to go after Z. But thanks for the canned response.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:17 PM   #5049
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
I've said about a bazillion times I have no problem with Zimmerman shooting Trayvon in self defense...
And if the defense convinces even one juror that this was the case here, Z walks. That's not exactly going to be difficult, unless the judge seriously hamstrings the defense by not allowing the facts as we now know them to be presented. No way 12 reasonable people look at this and say, "yeah, Z wanted to murder this guy." If Z is convicted at all, it'll be for something far less than murder.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:24 PM   #5050
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
And if the defense convinces even one juror that this was the case here, Z walks. That's not exactly going to be difficult, unless the judge seriously hamstrings the defense by not allowing the facts as we now know them to be presented. No way 12 reasonable people look at this and say, "yeah, Z wanted to murder this guy." If Z is convicted at all, it'll be for something far less than murder.
This trial is gonna hinge on who they believe was on top during the fight... Z's back was wet and he had the injuries to back up his story...

I see no way the State wins this case of 2nd degree...

Self Defense in Florida


A person who is attacked has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand their ground and meet force with force.


In Florida, Self Defense is referred to as the justifiable use of force. In simple terms, the defense allows a person to use force, sometimes deadly force, to protect one's self, one's property, or another person, so long as the force used is proportionate to the threat faced

Justifiable Use of Deadly Force

A person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

It is reasonably believed that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony (i.e. Robbery).
It is being used against a person who is unlawfully and forcefully breaking in, or has unlawfully and forcibly broken into a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle.
Exception to the Use of Deadly Force

Deadly Force cannot be used against:

A lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder (Unless there is a restraining order in place).
A parent who is retrieving a child or grandchild for whom they have lawful custody (Meaning you can't shoot an ex-spouse who is picking up children for the weekend and then claim they broke in.)
The person who uses defensive force is engaged in unlawful activity or using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity.
A known law enforcement officer who is engaged in a legal duty.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:25 PM   #5051
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And if the defense convinces even one juror that this was the case here, Z walks. That's not exactly going to be difficult, unless the judge seriously hamstrings the defense by not allowing the facts as we now know them to be presented. No way 12 reasonable people look at this and say, "yeah, Z wanted to murder this guy." If Z is convicted at all, it'll be for something far less than murder.
The murder charge was moronic and it's a shame the prosecution chose to give in to public pressure rather than go for a fair trial. I have no problem with how Zimmerman conducted himself once Trayvon went ape shit on him.

I don't like that he went beyond observe and report, and believe he initiated a confrontation that didn't need to happen. That's where I think the debate gets interesting. In the context of Florida law, he may have done nothing wrong. But that's something that probably needs to be re-evaluated.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:30 PM   #5052
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
The murder charge was moronic and it's a shame the prosecution chose to give in to public pressure rather than go for a fair trial. I have no problem with how Zimmerman conducted himself once Trayvon went ape shit on him.

I don't like that he went beyond observe and report, and believe he initiated a confrontation that didn't need to happen. That's where I think the debate gets interesting. In the context of Florida law, he may have done nothing wrong. But that's something that probably needs to be re-evaluated.
No it doesn't because GZ did NOTHING that justified felony assault... Thats like saying that if you look at me, I have the right to shoot you in the leg... Same thing... Felony assault
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:38 PM   #5053
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No it doesn't because GZ did NOTHING that justified felony assault... Thats like saying that if you look at me, I have the right to shoot you in the leg... Same thing... Felony assault
How proactive is a person who is CCW'ing, in your opinion, allowed to be in pursuing a suspicious person? I'm not talking about legally. I'm talking in terms of being a responsible gun owner.

I'm asking because genuinely, you sound like a guy who cares deeply about your gun rights and seem to take your responsibility seriously. I am guessing that you would have a lot more situational awareness for where Trayvon was and that you probably would have stayed close to your car.

Where is the line when you are carrying a firearm between protecting yourself and proactively pursuing situations where a firearm may need to be used?
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:47 PM   #5054
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
How proactive is a person who is CCW'ing, in your opinion, allowed to be in pursuing a suspicious person? I'm not talking about legally. I'm talking in terms of being a responsible gun owner.

I'm asking because genuinely, you sound like a guy who cares deeply about your gun rights and seem to take your responsibility seriously. I am guessing that you would have a lot more situational awareness for where Trayvon was and that you probably would have stayed close to your car.

Where is the line when you are carrying a firearm between protecting yourself and proactively pursuing situations where a firearm may need to be used?
I seriously doubt GZ ever thought he would need a gun in that situation to defend himself... I carry a firearm with me whenever I go to the store.. So it is not odd to just carry a gun for no reason. Regardless though, even if GZ would have walked 5 feet behind him, it did not justify TM committing felony assault on GZ... It was dark and I am sure GZ got rocked by the taste of blood and some dude on top of him pounding his head into the sidewalk as well as trying to smother him...

This is no different to me than if GZ was just patrolling the neighborhood and getting jumped out of the blue as he walked by.

Being annoying is not a reason to pound his head into the concrete and he only has to feel his life is in danger or serious injury is about to happen his wounds or how bad they are have nothing to do with his guilt or innocence.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:57 PM   #5055
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
And if the defense convinces even one juror that this was the case here, Z walks. That's not exactly going to be difficult, unless the judge seriously hamstrings the defense by not allowing the facts as we now know them to be presented. No way 12 reasonable people look at this and say, "yeah, Z wanted to murder this guy." If Z is convicted at all, it'll be for something far less than murder.
This is Screwy Ass Florida so it's only 6 people and finding "reasonable" ones there is a challenge. Oh and to make it even more difficult on that front... they are all 6 women!
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