The Stimulus, Before/After

[Direckshun]

I have not the slightest idea how to copy and paste this piece into a thread here. So my apologies on that.

Fortunately, it's 20 slides you should be able to breeze through in a couple minutes.

http://www.moslereconomics.com/wp-co...f/stimulus.pdf

I'm sure the next 50 posts will tell me to shove my head up my ass.

It's a good "read" regardless. Thoughts welcome, as if I needed to ask.

[ClevelandBronco]

Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew

It's not that anyone owes us anything. We owe it to ourselves to be a self sustaining country. Without that capability we are going to be up a creek without a paddle.

Who the hell is this "we" that owes us and who is going to enforce their compliance with your plan, which sounds to me like nothing more than happy horseshit at best, and fascism at worst?

[SNR]

Originally Posted by fan4ever

A bit off topic, but this part of your post reminds me of a quote attributed to Plato/Socrates

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Of course, since this sounds so contemporary, it is portrayed as folly...because the world is still here...right? Because the fall of the Greek civilization never happened.

Well, sure. The world IS still here today. And your sarcastic quip about the fall of Ancient Greece ignores the REAL reasons why its culture and society is no longer around today, so I'll just pretend you didn't just make that argument.

[SNR]

Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew

So you feel like I'm an old retired person? I just know for a fact that this country no longer produces the commodities it uses. What will you do if China cuts us off? If the economy tanks as the guys in NYC are predicting who's going to have the money to buy those things that aren't made here any longer? If I knew what was right I'd be in New Zealand rightnow being a millionaire. I know what's wrong and this country is moving in that direction.

That has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

The manufacturing sector of the economy could stand to be stronger. Absolutely. Does this mean that every time a company like Google rises in this country, it's a bad thing because the company doesn't manufacture stuff?

I'll extend it even further. We don't even have to call it a bad thing. We can call it a good thing with a dark side to it. How substantial is that dark side?

I would say it's barely substantial at all, and not even worth mentioning. What would you say?

[fan4ever]

Sarcastic? Not trying to be. While there were a multitude of issues that lead to Greece's demise, the civilization eventually unravelled and fell...so therefore you could argue Socrates' concerns may have been valid.

But what I'm really speaking to is the point of "that's what the generation before you said about you".

Just because it's been said before, doesn't make it invalid.

We're on a slippery slope in this country. It's hard to imagine it will get better.

Who's fault? You're absolutely right...the generation before. But is it wrong, no matter who's to blame, to recognize something you see as a problem or is it more wrong to simply ignore it and let it perpetuate?

[Iz Zat Chew]

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco

Who the hell is this "we" that owes us and who is going to enforce their compliance with your plan, which sounds to me like nothing more than happy horseshit at best, and fascism at worst?

WE owe it to ourselves - as in the American people. Call it happy horseshit or facism all you want. If Americans don't fix the problem we will most likely not be considered Americans.

[Iz Zat Chew]

Originally Posted by SNR

That has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

The manufacturing sector of the economy could stand to be stronger. Absolutely. Does this mean that every time a company like Google rises in this country, it's a bad thing because the company doesn't manufacture stuff?

I'll extend it even further. We don't even have to call it a bad thing. We can call it a good thing with a dark side to it. How substantial is that dark side?

I would say it's barely substantial at all, and not even worth mentioning. What would you say?

I would say that we will never agree. I feel America should be self sustaining. I never said that google or facebook is bad, they provide nothing of substance.

[mlyonsd]

Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew

I would say that we will never agree. I feel America should be self sustaining. I never said that google or facebook is bad, they provide nothing of substance.

If facebook went under 20-30 million teenagers would commit suicide. That's kind of a big deal.

[Iz Zat Chew]

Originally Posted by mlyonsd

If facebook went under 20-30 million teenagers would commit suicide. That's kind of a big deal.

I seriously doubt that, but if that's your pov then OK. Someone would come along with another non-product program to replace it. MySpace was big until facebook took over, I don't remember there being masses of teens killing themselves.

[ClevelandBronco]

Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew

WE owe it to ourselves - as in the American people. Call it happy horseshit or facism all you want. If Americans don't fix the problem we will most likely not be considered Americans.

The American people do not collectively own the means of production, so I'm eager to hear your plan. I assume it involves force of government.

[mlyonsd]

Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew

I seriously doubt that, but if that's your pov then OK. Someone would come along with another non-product program to replace it. MySpace was big until facebook took over, I don't remember there being masses of teens killing themselves.

Tom, it was a joke. Lighten up.

[ClevelandBronco]

Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew

I would say that we will never agree. I feel America should be self sustaining. I never said that google or facebook is bad, they provide nothing of substance.

Time to rethink what substance looks like in 2012.

[Iz Zat Chew]

Originally Posted by mlyonsd

Tom, it was a joke. Lighten up.

I'll lighten up if you use my real name.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew

I'll lighten up if you use my real name.

[Iz Zat Chew]

Originally Posted by patteeu

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew

So you feel like I'm an old retired person? I just know for a fact that this country no longer produces the commodities it uses. What will you do if China cuts us off? If the economy tanks as the guys in NYC are predicting who's going to have the money to buy those things that aren't made here any longer? If I knew what was right I'd be in New Zealand rightnow being a millionaire. I know what's wrong and this country is moving in that direction.

You're not factoring in how much prices go up when you force domestic firms to use domestic resources. Take sugar. That one commodity alone is costing billions of dollars because we place tariffs to protect American sugar farmers. That means my sugar price is significantly higher than it would cost in Europe. That means that manufacturers like Coca-Cola have to either decide to pay for expensive sugar or produce an artificial substance like high fructose corn syrup. Forcing domestic production means higher prices for consumers, higher costs for businesses, and an inability to compete in the global economy.

I get your intention. But economically, it doesn't make any sense to force more domestic production. The theory of comparative advantage suggests that if some other country can do it a hell of a lot cheaper than you, then your country should shift resources to producing things you can do a hell of a lot better than they can.

Facebook is an imperfect example, because it's not totally clear how they will continue to make money. Apple is a classic example. When Apple does very well in Japan, that means that Japanese people are pumping money into our economy.