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Old 06-28-2012, 07:02 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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I'm pretty sure Roberts changed his vote at the last moment.

Scalia believed he was writing the majority, which would have overturned the entire law.

Ginsburg was writing the dissent.

Then, Roberts changed.

http://www.salon.com/2012/06/28/did_...itch_his_vote/

Did John Roberts switch his vote?
Updated: The dissents suggest the court was set to overturn Obamacare -- until Roberts suddenly changed his vote
By Paul Campos
Thursday, Jun 28, 2012 01:56 PM CDT

Has a second “switch in time” saved nine? That’s the unavoidable impression that a reading of the four dissenters’ joint opinion in the PPACA case leaves. The first “switch in time” also involved a Justice Roberts – Owen Roberts, who in 1937 suddenly switched his vote in a case whose outcome signaled the end of a five-vote majority that was blocking much of the Roosevelt administration’s New Deal.

At the time, Roberts’ jurisprudential conversion seemed extremely suspicious to many observers, given that it was announced just a few weeks after FDR had presented legislation proposing an expansion of the Supreme Court to 15 members – a plan attacked by critics as a scheme to “pack the Court” with justices who would uphold New Deal laws. Cynics began referring to Roberts’ sudden change of heart as “the switch in time that saved nine” – that is, that kept the court’s membership at nine justices.

Subsequent historical research suggests that Roberts had already decided to change his vote before FDR announced his plan to expand the court, but we shouldn’t let that detail interfere with the delightful semantic coincidence that it very much looks as if the second Justice Roberts did “switch in time” — at least in part to shield nine justices from the political fallout sure to result from overturning the ACA.

Rumors had been circulating in legal circles for weeks that Chief Justice Roberts in particular was under enormous political pressure not to be the vote that would overturn the most significant piece of social legislation passed by Congress in decades. Indeed, in April President Obama took the unusual step of issuing something of a public warning on the subject, saying that he was “confident that the Supreme Court will not take what would be an unprecedented, extraordinary step of overturning a law that was passed by a strong majority of a democratically elected Congress.”

It is impossible for a lawyer to read even the first few pages of the dissent without coming away with the impression that this is a majority opinion that at the last moment lost its fifth vote. Its structure and tone are those of a winning coalition, not that of the losing side in the most controversial Supreme Court case in many years. But when we get to Page 13, far more conclusive evidence appears: No less than 15 times in the space of the next few pages, the dissent refers to Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s concurring opinion as “Justice Ginsburg’s dissent.”

There is one likely explanation for this: The dissent was the majority opinion when those who voted to overturn the entire ACA signed off on sending their text to the printer. In other words, Chief Justice Roberts changed his vote at the very last possible moment.

It is inconceivable that the dissent reads as it does by inadvertence. We can be sure every word of it was proofread countless times by the dissenters’ 16 clerks, all of whom know how to make a global change on a word processing program.

Another unavoidable conclusion seems to be that the dissenters intentionally left the parts of their text referring to Ginsburg’s “dissent” unchanged. This was a symbolic gesture, intended to reveal, without formally breaking the justices’ code of silence, what the Chief Justice did to them — and, as they no doubt see it, to the country and the Constitution — through his last-moment reversal.

Update: As commenters point out, it is true that Ginsburg does dissent to part of the majority opinion, while concurring with most of it, but it’s also clear that the four joint dissenters are referring to a full dissent, not a dissent in part, as the following passage makes clear:

Quote:
Finally, we must observe that rewriting §5000A as a tax in order to sustain its constitutionality would force us to confront a difficult constitutional question: whether this is a direct tax that must be apportioned among the States according to their population. Art. I, §9, cl. 4. Perhaps it is not (we have no need to address the point); but the meaning of the Direct Tax Clause is famously unclear, and its application here is a question of first impression that deserves more thoughtful consideration.
The dissenters are saying that construing the mandate as a tax would require them to address a constitutional question that they don’t have to address. But the only reason the Court would not have to address this question is if the majority in fact refused to construe the mandate as a tax – which is exactly what the Court’s majority ended up doing.

In addition, the joint dissenters refer consistently to Ginsburg’s item as “the Dissent.” This phrase makes no sense except in the context of a majority opinion referring to a single dissent.

Paul Campos is a professor of law at the University of Colorado at Boulder.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:09 PM   #2
Iz Zat Chew Iz Zat Chew is offline
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I wondeer how much pressure from the White House was involved in the overall conversations.

My question remains, what happens when those that don't buy the insurance refuse to pay the "penalty" tax placed on them by the IRS? The same effect comes from the IRS with bigger consequences if you defy the IRS, and it's a lasting involvement with the IRS.

Those that choose not to play the Obama game will have to pay, be it taxes or penalty, either way the country will be worse off.

Health care does need to be reformed, but the current pile of paper is worthless with the exception of a few. I'd like to see a full committe of people involved that aren't on the payroll of the government lay out a plan of action that would be paletable for all Americans.

I'm not big on social medicine, I've seen it first hand and it is not all it's talked up to be.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:13 PM   #3
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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That Roberts faced "pressure" to uphold the law is ridiculous. If he felt pressure, it was surely from the right, which he knew would go apeshit on him for upholding it. He's got a lifetime job. What pressure from the left is going to matter?
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:30 PM   #4
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Yeah, because the general population could **** with Roberts way more than the President, with all the factions at his disposal, ever could.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:40 PM   #5
Iz Zat Chew Iz Zat Chew is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
That Roberts faced "pressure" to uphold the law is ridiculous. If he felt pressure, it was surely from the right, which he knew would go apeshit on him for upholding it. He's got a lifetime job. What pressure from the left is going to matter?
Overlooking the obvious? Probably are if you can type that response with a clear conscience.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:00 PM   #6
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew View Post
Overlooking the obvious? Probably are if you can type that response with a clear conscience.
Apparently it is not obvious enough. The moon men made him do it?
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:10 PM   #7
Iz Zat Chew Iz Zat Chew is offline
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Apparently it is not obvious enough. The moon men made him do it?
If I thought you had the capability of understanding I'd explain, but, without a doubt, there is no way someone of your belief can see the trees as the forrest is in the way.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:23 PM   #8
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew View Post
If I thought you had the capability of understanding I'd explain, but, without a doubt, there is no way someone of your belief can see the trees as the forrest is in the way.
OK, so you got nothing.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:58 PM   #9
Iz Zat Chew Iz Zat Chew is offline
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OK, so you got nothing.
I might have nothing, but I have way more than you could ever have.

I have peace in my heart, you may never find the peace that will solve your problems.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:16 PM   #10
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That last part is key.

The only reason why they would "need not address the point" was if the majority disagreed that the mandate was constitutional only as a tax, but thats exactly what Roberts did.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:23 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew View Post
I might have nothing, but I have way more than you could ever have.

I have peace in my heart, you may never find the peace that will solve your problems.
Sure, Tom. that's why you keep coming back for the same old arguments time after time after time.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:25 PM   #12
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Yeah, because the general population could **** with Roberts way more than the President, with all the factions at his disposal, ever could.
Specifically what are you hallucinating, I mean imagining could happen from the POTUS that would be worse than what he would experience from his own side who thinks he deserted them?
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:31 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Iz Zat Chew View Post
I wondeer how much pressure from the White House was involved in the overall conversations.

My question remains, what happens when those that don't buy the insurance refuse to pay the "penalty" tax placed on them by the IRS? The same effect comes from the IRS with bigger consequences if you defy the IRS, and it's a lasting involvement with the IRS.

Those that choose not to play the Obama game will have to pay, be it taxes or penalty, either way the country will be worse off.

Health care does need to be reformed, but the current pile of paper is worthless with the exception of a few. I'd like to see a full committe of people involved that aren't on the payroll of the government lay out a plan of action that would be paletable for all Americans.

I'm not big on social medicine, I've seen it first hand and it is not all it's talked up to be.
Get rid of the middle men (insurance companies) that add nothing of value to care would be a great start. They don't want to deal with the needs of small businesses unless they don't have any sick employees. There isn't any profit in it for them. Billions going to a broker.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:38 PM   #14
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http://www.volokh.com/2012/06/28/mor...ched-his-vote/

Several more clues, two of them seem very clear to me.

The dissent was unsigned. Isn't that weird for a case of this magnitude? We kept referring to it as the Kennedy dissent (because he read some of it from the bench) or the Scalia dissent (since his name was listed first), but its unsigned.

It is nobody's dissent, its unsigned, joined by those 4. That really makes no sense unless the Chief Justice originally wrote most of it, then changed his mind. If THATS what happened, it makes more sense.

Also, its understandable that Ginsburg would want to disagree with the Chief Justice's reasoning while concurring, but she seemed rather hostile to the Chief Justice. While reading her opinion, you keep wondering "gee, rather harsh language to direct at the guy who saved your side."

However, if she was originally directing her ire at the guy who wrote the conservative majority opinion, it makes a lot more sense.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:02 PM   #15
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Also, why in the hell would the dissent (other than a few pages tacked onto the end) constantly refer to and attack Ginsburg's opinion, but not say one word about the Chief Justice? He almost had to have written it, then the 4 he ditched said "screw it, tradition says we can't talk about this, but we're leaving this thing untouched as an obvious clue of what you did to us!"
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