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Old 07-20-2012, 10:50 AM  
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Gun Control

We have all heard about what happened in Aurora, Co, and I think that Gun Control is going to be a huge topic in the following months.


What measures need to be taken? Do you have any ideas that will help prevent this kind of thing from happening again as it pertains to guns?
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Old 07-21-2012, 07:18 PM   #301
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Your idea? Not acceptable. The National Guard already serves that purpose.
You're right, I left out an important word: Undercover. The National Guard, with specific training, could work too.

I mostly want there to be some common-ground-based ideas out there that might actually make things better, rather than have message board arguments about it until the End of Days.
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Old 07-21-2012, 07:25 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
Yes no flash hiders,bayonet lugs,pistol grips on AK,s ect made a huge difference.

Clinton AK


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It shoots the same bullet at the same speed and rate of fire. Making it look less scary doesn't change a thing.
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Old 07-21-2012, 07:42 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by dmahurin View Post
It shoots the same bullet at the same speed and rate of fire. Making it look less scary doesn't change a thing.
Damn, that gave me wood.... I am gonna walk to the safe and massage some cold blue steel right now... I will BRB
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:15 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by R8ers View Post
Damn, that gave me wood.... I am gonna walk to the safe and massage some cold blue steel right now... I will BRB
Already called my buddy. We are going out to the farm and light up some 500 yard targets with my AR-10 and AR-15 Varmint rifle tomorrow morning.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:22 PM   #305
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Already called my buddy. We are going out to the farm and light up some 500 yard targets with my AR-10 and AR-15 Varmint rifle tomorrow morning.
Sweet... Yall be careful out there and don't skeer any Libtards that may be lurking.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:23 PM   #306
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Me and my buddy went to the range and we were the only ones there... He was walking to get the targets we had shot and I emptied a magazine in a safe direction and he bout shit all over himself thinking he was being fired at
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:04 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by dmahurin View Post
It shoots the same bullet at the same speed and rate of fire. Making it look less scary doesn't change a thing.
Since you missed it the first time
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:08 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by R8ers View Post
Me and my buddy went to the range and we were the only ones there... He was walking to get the targets we had shot and I emptied a magazine in a safe direction and he bout shit all over himself thinking he was being fired at
Ha ha ha, that's hilarious.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:53 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by R8ers View Post
Sweet... Yall be careful out there and don't skeer any Libtards that may be lurking.
All that we have are the scary black rifles. I will be surprised if anyone survives since guns are so dangerous.

I might have to break out my unconverted Saiga .308 just to be safe.
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:10 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. tegu View Post
when I think of assault rifle, I think of distance and rapid fire. However, I am sure I am using that term too loosely which is why I also added high powered weapons. (again probably too broad). I appreciate the information you have provided and I know that I am by no means an expert, but unlike many people, regardless of their views I am willing to learn. I may not agree with everything everyone says but if I learn, then I am better for it. So anything you can to do correct my "knowledge" is fine with me.
Outstanding place to start. The US definition of the term assault rifle (during the assault rifle ban) included any fully automatic rifle and any semi-auto rifle that included:

Folding or telescoping stock - *
Pistol grip - *
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor - *
Grenade launcher

Now, my semi-auto Mini 14 meets 3 of those criteria (the ones with an asterisk) meaning it would have been banned for those 10 years. Depending on the weight of the bullet, my Mini can be effective at around 500 yards and the magazine holds 20 .223 Remington caliber rounds which is the exact same caliber that the US military uses in the M-16.

It also fits your criteria of long distance(ish) and the capability of rapid fire though I would say that it would not be considered a high powered weapon. I bring this up so we have a mutual understanding of terminology as we have this discussion. So for clarification, would you consider my rifle to be among those that should not be owned by civilians?

Quote:
So leaving assault rifles specifically, out of it, I think that my main thing is that the sheer fire power people can get just seems unnecessary. Sniper rifles for example can hit targets from 2,000 yards. Outside of a good time at the range that seems silly. Or people getting 60 rounds and shooting them in no time. Or armor piercing ammo for rifles. I guess for me it is not so much about power as it is distance, accuracy, and rapid fire. For example, a shotgun is uber powerful, but more typically at a short distance so having that in your house I can see how that would be very beneficial and making you feel secure.
One of the most popular rounds for big game hunting is the .308 Winchester. People use it to hunt bears, mule deer, and elk. Big heavy critters that need a lot of punch to take down. It is also (one of) the caliber used by our military in sniper rifles such as the M24A1 and is rated for accuracy at 850 yards though there have been confirmed 1k yard kills.

One of the biggest benefits to using a semi-auto is having that next round immediately available in case the wind caught your shot or you misplace the shot and merely wound the animal. If the animal bolts while wounded, there is a very good chance that it will eventually die a slow and painful death due to infection or simply a slow bleed out.

That said, you have other calibers used as sniper rifles such as the .50 caliber Barrett M82. That thing is an absolute beast. At a cost of about $10k and a range of about 2k yards, it is what I think you had in mind when you were making your sniper rifle statement. That is a weapon that is available to civilians in most states but the catch is that it is so massively expensive huge and heavy with it's ammunition being ridiculously costly making it unrealistic to use that weapon in a criminal act. In fact, I would venture to say that there will be more people killed by sharks in any given year than there will be by a .50 caliber round.

Rifle cartridges greater than .30 will defeat all but the absolute heaviest of armor. Armor piercing rounds aka "Cop Killers" are kind of a mute point and completely illegal for civilians to own, manufacture, or import. Fun fact, no police officer has ever been killed by a AP round.

Quote:
I am more than willing to engage in a legitimate discussion and hear opposing views. Its when people begin making personal attacks or let their preconceptions about the other person that derails conversation because then people are much less likely to actually listen to what others are saying, and they also tend to get even more entrenched into a position that they had no intent of really defending.
TBH, I am thrilled to have an intelligent conversation with someone on the other side of the fence on this. Like you said, too often these discussions end up in mud slinging and name calling. There is nothing to be gained by that type of exchange.

Apologies for the long winded reply.

Parting though... I often think that people are frightened by the look of the gun itself vs it's actual capability. If you were to see these two guns, by looks alone, does one cause you more concern than the other?




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Old 07-21-2012, 11:52 PM   #311
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I am generally against more gun laws but this is something I think I could personally get behind. On all private sales either make individuals go through an ffl or create some kind of system in which a firearm owner could themselves document the sales of their own guns and contact NICS for an approval on the sale. I wouldnt 't see the requirement of background checks on private sales as a bad thing.
This was something I was saying earlier in the thread and I still don't see how it is a bad thing. But boy was I getting flack for it
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Old 07-22-2012, 12:22 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
Outstanding place to start. The US definition of the term assault rifle (during the assault rifle ban) included any fully automatic rifle and any semi-auto rifle that included:

Folding or telescoping stock - *
Pistol grip - *
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor - *
Grenade launcher

Now, my semi-auto Mini 14 meets 3 of those criteria (the ones with an asterisk) meaning it would have been banned for those 10 years. Depending on the weight of the bullet, my Mini can be effective at around 500 yards and the magazine holds 20 .223 Remington caliber rounds which is the exact same caliber that the US military uses in the M-16.

It also fits your criteria of long distance(ish) and the capability of rapid fire though I would say that it would not be considered a high powered weapon. I bring this up so we have a mutual understanding of terminology as we have this discussion. So for clarification, would you consider my rifle to be among those that should not be owned by civilians?
That gun may have a distance of 500 yards, but it doesn't seem like it would be very accurate or destructive at that distance given the size of the rounds. As far as whether it should be owned? Eh, I don't want to speak in absolutes, but that doesn't seem like something that unreasonable. I have kind of been thinking, perhaps the more powerful or automatic, etc. I wonder how you would feel about having "levels" if you will, on permits for guns. So for example, you have one or two for a certain time that are in a certain class, then you take another course to earn the right to get something like this one you described. I don't know, I am just throwing out ideas I guess. And if such a thing exist already...my bad

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Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
One of the most popular rounds for big game hunting is the .308 Winchester. People use it to hunt bears, mule deer, and elk. Big heavy critters that need a lot of punch to take down. It is also (one of) the caliber used by our military in sniper rifles such as the M24A1 and is rated for accuracy at 850 yards though there have been confirmed 1k yard kills.

One of the biggest benefits to using a semi-auto is having that next round immediately available in case the wind caught your shot or you misplace the shot and merely wound the animal. If the animal bolts while wounded, there is a very good chance that it will eventually die a slow and painful death due to infection or simply a slow bleed out.
I understand the needs of certain types of hunters. I think something that could be in place and potentially make sense is to prove a hunting license to purchase something that is that powerful. That may seem extreme to some, which I get, but again I am just throwing out ideas to gage where people are. All that said, this round though powerful, doesn't appeal to people other than hunters as I understand it. Correct? I am not sure how many can be fired within a minute, but unless I am way off, comparitively speaking to other guns, its not much. Essentially it requires skill for effective use as I see it.

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Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
That said, you have other calibers used as sniper rifles such as the .50 caliber Barrett M82. That thing is an absolute beast. At a cost of about $10k and a range of about 2k yards, it is what I think you had in mind when you were making your sniper rifle statement. That is a weapon that is available to civilians in most states but the catch is that it is so massively expensive huge and heavy with it's ammunition being ridiculously costly making it unrealistic to use that weapon in a criminal act. In fact, I would venture to say that there will be more people killed by sharks in any given year than there will be by a .50 caliber round.

Rifle cartridges greater than .30 will defeat all but the absolute heaviest of armor. Armor piercing rounds aka "Cop Killers" are kind of a mute point and completely illegal for civilians to own, manufacture, or import. Fun fact, no police officer has ever been killed by a AP round.
I would agree that thing is certainly the more extreme end of the spectrum. On snipers I do see the appeal and challenge that comes with them when people want to use them at the range. Some people shoot baskets with a ball, others shoot targets with guns. No biggie to me. But what I will say about snipers (I may use that term too loosely, I think of looking through a scope for precision kills) they seem like something that really has no place outside of a shooting range. But it is the same with the .308 you mentioned, in that it requires training and skill for use and not really appealing to criminals.

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Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
TBH, I am thrilled to have an intelligent conversation with someone on the other side of the fence on this. Like you said, too often these discussions end up in mud slinging and name calling. There is nothing to be gained by that type of exchange.

Apologies for the long winded reply.

Parting though... I often think that people are frightened by the look of the gun itself vs it's actual capability. If you were to see these two guns, by looks alone, does one cause you more concern than the other?



That is tough to say which one frightens me more. The top one looks like it has more raw power, but it seems like it has less of a fire rate capacity than the bottom one. The bottom one looks much more like if I miss, I can keep on firing.
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:18 AM   #313
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Alex Jones says it's plain as day the federal government staged the Batman shootings as one more step towards disarming the population, declaring martial law and turning us into a totalitarian police state.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:01 AM   #314
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At the range this morning my buddy said,"If you give them an inch, they will take a mile."


That, my friends, is why gun owners go on full defense when anything arises about gun control.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:03 AM   #315
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Alex Jones says it's plain as day the federal government staged the Batman shootings as one more step towards disarming the population, declaring martial law and turning us into a totalitarian police state.


I heard a religious nut on Fox News Radio say that the killings were a result of violent movies and single mom parenting. There are completely insane people everywhere, and it is a little scary.
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