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Old 07-20-2012, 09:50 AM  
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Gun Control

We have all heard about what happened in Aurora, Co, and I think that Gun Control is going to be a huge topic in the following months.


What measures need to be taken? Do you have any ideas that will help prevent this kind of thing from happening again as it pertains to guns?
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:42 AM   #1216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD View Post
The CDC has already done the study. They did it back in 2002. This was already listed earlier but since you didn't see I'll list it for you again. The overall finding was that there was insufficient evidence that either gun control laws, or things like CCWs have any measurable effect on crime. Given the history of those policies, if there was a significant effect we should have already seen it by now. The fact that the CDC would be expected to have an anti-gun bias and yet they still reported that there is insufficient evidence to say that any of the exist laws work only enhances the credibility of the conclusion.

The report in question....

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

When you combine it with the fact that people are proposing that we institute national gun control policies similar to what was already in effect in CT and yet still failed to prevent the tragedy. The conclusion that we should be drawing is, instead of pumping money into failed policies, how about we try something different?
Two points, a minor one related to your post, and a major one related to your point:

1. As per your post, you're conflating "insufficient evidence" with "evidence of ineffectiveness," when the study you're citing has the following warning in its summary:

Quote:
Note that insufficient evidence to determine effectiveness should not be interpreted as evidence of ineffectiveness.
So be careful with that.

2. More importantly, as per your point, fantastic. The CDC conducted a rare gun violence study. I don't know how much research you conduct, but you know that a simple line of research, even exhausive research, does not settle any issue. You need repeated research from multiple angles to get the best grip on reality.

I don't want you to construe that as a disbelief of the study, I've already read it and have no problems with it. But a study only provides a snapshot. We need continuous study on this subject like we do on other health-related subjects that the CDC and NIH conduct repeatedly.

Rep for the link, however. It was exactly related to what I was talking about, nice work.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:11 AM   #1217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Two points, a minor one related to your post, and a major one related to your point:

1. As per your post, you're conflating "insufficient evidence" with "evidence of ineffectiveness," when the study you're citing has the following warning in its summary:



So be careful with that.

2. More importantly, as per your point, fantastic. The CDC conducted a rare gun violence study. I don't know how much research you conduct, but you know that a simple line of research, even exhausive research, does not settle any issue. You need repeated research from multiple angles to get the best grip on reality.

I don't want you to construe that as a disbelief of the study, I've already read it and have no problems with it. But a study only provides a snapshot. We need continuous study on this subject like we do on other health-related subjects that the CDC and NIH conduct repeatedly.

Rep for the link, however. It was exactly related to what I was talking about, nice work.
Absolutely knowledge is always evolving and you should always keep looking especially if you believe something to be untrue, because who knows maybe you'll be the one to prove that you were right all along.

While I agree insufficient evidence does not mean that it doesn't or can't work. Given the number of people looking at the issues and the length of time many of these policies have been in effect, one would expect that if the violence reduction were significant it would be clearly evident. The fact that we still have not established clear and consistent results to the positive impact, suggests that any improvement these polices may cause are more likely minor if they do anything at all.

Obviously nothing is definitive and there are always forces at play to suppress research on both sides, given the research already done, we should have found something relatively undeniable if it was there.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:47 AM   #1218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD View Post
Absolutely knowledge is always evolving and you should always keep looking especially if you believe something to be untrue, because who knows maybe you'll be the one to prove that you were right all along.

While I agree insufficient evidence does not mean that it doesn't or can't work. Given the number of people looking at the issues and the length of time many of these policies have been in effect, one would expect that if the violence reduction were significant it would be clearly evident. The fact that we still have not established clear and consistent results to the positive impact, suggests that any improvement these polices may cause are more likely minor if they do anything at all.

Obviously nothing is definitive and there are always forces at play to suppress research on both sides, given the research already done, we should have found something relatively undeniable if it was there.
Reasonable.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:26 PM   #1219
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Rupert Murdoch and Joe Scarborough both calling for tighter gun control. Interesting.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:51 AM   #1220
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Will Obama use executive action on guns?

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.By Liz Goodwin, Yahoo! News | The Lookout – 3 hrs ago.. .
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Two AR-15 rifles in a gun store in Colorado (Getty Images)Proponents of stricter gun control measures are pressuring President Barack Obama to sidestep Congress and act now to tighten the nation's controls on firearms.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg, one of the nation's leading proponents of stricter gun control, held a press conference on Monday, flanked by victims of gun violence and their families, to urge Obama to act.

"There are steps that the president can take on his own, right now, to address gun violence," Bloomberg said on Monday.

It's true that Obama, no longer worried about re-election, could take some action on guns without Congress, including pushing for more oversight of sellers and more thorough background checks for buyers. Obama hinted in a Sunday night prayer vigil with mourners in Newtown, Conn., that inaction will not be an option.

"I'll use whatever power this office holds to engage my fellow citizens in an effort aimed at preventing more tragedies like this, because what choice do we have?" he said.

In fact, after the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, Obama ordered the Justice Department to examine how the FBI's background check system, which is used in most gun sales to ensure felons or mentally ill people are not buying weapons, has more up-to-date information. Since then, the Justice Department has slightly beefed up the database by automatically adding federal crime information instead of waiting for prosecutors to manually input it.

But there are still huge holes in the database, including crucial information from other federal and state agencies about whether someone is mentally ill. After the 2007 Virginia Tech shooting, Congress called on these other agencies, including the Social Security Administration, to share this information. (The Virginia Tech shooter had been declared mentally ill by a state judge, but that information wasn't in the FBI database.) So far that hasn't happened, according to a New York Times report. (In the Newtown case, it's unclear whether a better FBI database would have helped, because the weapons used were reportedly registered to the shooter's mother.)

Bloomberg said Monday that with a "stroke of his pen," Obama could compel other agencies to share this information, bolstering the background checks that most gun buyers go through before obtaining weapons.

More...But Adam Winkler, a law professor at UCLA and an expert on gun laws, said it's unclear how much Obama can do about the database executively. Most likely, he said, the president has the power to compel states to give more information to the database and make the FBI more proactively gather data from some sources, but there could be privacy concerns and potential lawsuits that would freeze up action.

There's also the fact that about 40 percent of gun sales do not include a background check because of a massive loophole that lets private sellers dodge the background check requirement. Gun control advocates have been lobbying Congress for years to close this loophole.

"For any reform to be meaningful it means Congress has to sign on," Winkler says.

David Kopel, an adjunct law professor at at New York University and research director at the conservative think tank the Independence Institute, said Obama so far has not been as executively "aggressive" as President Bill Clinton was on gun control, but that he wouldn't be surprised if the president begins to pursue more executive action on the subject now.

In his first term, Obama required gun sellers in the four border states to report to the federal government if individuals buy more than one semi-automatic rifle in a short amount of time. Kopel says the president may try to expand that requirement to all 50 states, which would be sure to raise complaints that he was instituting a de-facto national gun registry.

Kopel also said Obama could try to classify certain guns as "destructive devices," a legal term for some weapons that are highly restricted by federal law. So, for example, Obama could administratively reclassify the AR-15, a semi-automatic rifle similar to the one used in the Newtown shooting, as a destructive device. Kopel thinks this would be a legally dubious move, however, which would most likely be challenged in the courts.

Past presidents, including George H.W. Bush and Clinton, have also placed strict barriers on imports of certain types of weapons, which have relaxed over the past 10 years. Obama could reinstate these import bans.

But most of the reforms coveted by Bloomberg and other gun control advocates—bans on certain rifles and pistols that automatically reload and high-capacity magazines that carry more than 10 bullets—would almost certainly have to go through Congress.

"I'm skeptical that much more can be done thorugh the administrative route," said Bob Cottrol, a professor of law at George Washington University.

And even if Congress signs on to these reforms, a 2008 landmark Supreme Court decision could end up being a roadblock. In the District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court ruled that lawmakers cannot ban an entire class of gun (in this case, handguns) that people commonly use for self defense. Kopel thinks this means any categorical ban (like one on assault weapons) will be suspect, because many of those weapons are very popular. (The AR-15 weapon is one of the most popular in the country.)

But Winkler contends that even if the weapons are popular, that they're used for hunting or to shoot at ranges for fun and not for self defense, such a ban would most likely pass constitutional muster. "These high-powered semi-automatic rifles are not self-defense weapons," Winkler said
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:53 AM   #1221
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I have no problem with better background checks, database sharing, etc.


Get it done, President Obama.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:39 PM   #1222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notorious View Post
I have no problem with better background checks, database sharing, etc.


Get it done, President Obama.
Yeah I can't imagine anyone would oppose that type of thing. There is no reason for people with well documented and diagnosed mental disorders to be able to slip through the cracks. Would anyone oppose that being tightened up?

I posted this in the other thread but I thought I would share it here as well. I have come to the conclusion that gun control is really only a major problem when it is being talked about. I think that some of you are being a little paranoid to think things are going to drastically change now. The only thing I could see changing, and rightfully so in my opinion, is limitations on people who have close relatives or people living with them with severe mental disabilities. Not even necessarily not letting them purchase them, but perhaps limiting the types, the numbers, or the amount of ammo (just thinking out loud on that). I am sure most of you know better than I what would be appropriate and agreeable limitations for people in these unfortunate circumstances.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:37 PM   #1223
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An 11-year old 6th grade student in Kearns, Utah is in custody after he reportedly brought a gun to school to protect himself in the event of a school shooting similar to that of Newtown, Conn., according to NBC News:
Some witnesses have said they saw the boy brandish the gun on the playground and point it at another child's head. Other reports said the boy verbally threatened another student with the gun. Police have not yet been able to confirm these accounts, Horsley said, noting that it's sometimes difficult to sort out the facts when all the witnesses are children.
Horsley said two of the boy's classmates complained to a teacher at about 3 p.m. MST, about 45 minutes before the end of the school day. The teacher immediately secured the boy and took him to the principal's office. It was the principal who retrieved the boy's backpack from his classroom and contacted Granite School District police. Police were able to find the weapon and secured the situation in three to five minutes, Horsley said.

The boy also had ammunition, although the gun was not loaded and it was not immediately clear whether the bullets were the appropriate ammunition for the gun, Horsley said.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:58 PM   #1224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. tegu View Post
Yeah I can't imagine anyone would oppose that type of thing. There is no reason for people with well documented and diagnosed mental disorders to be able to slip through the cracks. Would anyone oppose that being tightened up?

I posted this in the other thread but I thought I would share it here as well. I have come to the conclusion that gun control is really only a major problem when it is being talked about. I think that some of you are being a little paranoid to think things are going to drastically change now. The only thing I could see changing, and rightfully so in my opinion, is limitations on people who have close relatives or people living with them with severe mental disabilities. Not even necessarily not letting them purchase them, but perhaps limiting the types, the numbers, or the amount of ammo (just thinking out loud on that). I am sure most of you know better than I what would be appropriate and agreeable limitations for people in these unfortunate circumstances.
What are you going to do? Flag everybody who's taking Paxil?
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:05 PM   #1225
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What are you going to do? Flag everybody who's taking Paxil?
You are a worthless dipshit. Certain disorders should be flagged.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:51 PM   #1226
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:55 PM   #1227
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surprised they didn't generalize it as a "Glock Semi-Automatic Pistol'
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:59 PM   #1228
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446 school age children shot in Chicago so far this year with strongest gun laws in country – media silent
The cesspool known as Chicago probably has the toughest gun laws in the country, yet despite all the shootings, murders, and bloodshed, you never hear a peep about this from the corrupt state run media. In Chicago, there have been 446 school age children shot in leftist utopia run by Rahm Emanuel and that produced Obama, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, etc. 62 school aged children have actually been killed by crazed nuts in Chicago so far this year with almost two weeks to go. So why isn’t this news worthy? Is it because it would embarrass those anti second amendment nuts who brag about Chicago’s tough gun laws? Is it because msot of the kids who were shot and killed were minorities? Or is it because the corrupt media doesn’t want to show Chicago in a bad light? Amazingly, no Obama crocodile tears either.
THE LIST OF MURDERED SCHOOL AGE CHILDREN 2012
18 YEARS OLD- 15

17 YEARS OLD- 16

16 YEARS OLD- 16

15 YEARS OLD- 6

14 YEARS OLD- 4

13 YEARS OLD- 2

12 YEARS OLD- 1

7 YEARS OLD- 1

6 YEARS OLD- 1

446 School Age Children Shot in Chicago so Far This Year
THE LIST OF SCHOOL AGE CHILDREN SHOT IN 2012

18 year old- 110

17 year old- 99

16 year old- 89

15 year old- 62

14 year old- 39

13 year old- 21

12 year old- 10

11 year old- 2

10 year old- 3

9 year old- 1

7 year old- 3

6 year old- 2

5 year old- 1

4 year old- 1

3 year old- 1

1 year old- 2

Once again eat a cock Native
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:20 PM   #1229
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I picked up my AR from Cabela's tonight after work. You should have seen that place. It was crazy. I mean crazy, insane, crazy! I waited an hour just to talk to someone. The FBI was so backed up on doing background checks nationwide it had people waiting hours to get out of there. I was there almost 4 hours myself.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:50 PM   #1230
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I picked up my AR from Cabela's tonight after work. You should have seen that place. It was crazy. I mean crazy, insane, crazy! I waited an hour just to talk to someone. The FBI was so backed up on doing background checks nationwide it had people waiting hours to get out of there. I was there almost 4 hours myself.
That's an very appropriate description.
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