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Old 07-20-2012, 09:50 AM  
notorious notorious is offline
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Gun Control

We have all heard about what happened in Aurora, Co, and I think that Gun Control is going to be a huge topic in the following months.


What measures need to be taken? Do you have any ideas that will help prevent this kind of thing from happening again as it pertains to guns?
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:56 PM   #1291
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Explain how "shall not be infringed" is not plain?
Explain why you are pretending there are no other words in the 2nd amendment, including "well regulated."
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:59 PM   #1292
GloucesterChief GloucesterChief is offline
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Explain why you are pretending there are no other words in the 2nd amendment, including "well regulated."
I am not. I am just pointing out that under the bill rights the right of citizens to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Now please answer the question. In what way is "shall not be infringed" not plain language?
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:06 PM   #1293
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
I am not. I am just pointing out that under the bill rights the right of citizens to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Now please answer the question. In what way is "shall not be infringed" not plain language?
I don't think "infringe" is the operative term in this debate. I think the operative term is "arms."
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:08 PM   #1294
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when Shall has a felony record. Some of it is hard core though. a kid gets a felony at 18 & then never gets in trouble again the rest of his life. & at 70 still cant vote or own a fire arm. IMO their needs to be a statute of limitations on none violent offenders that stay out of trouble
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:11 PM   #1295
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when Shall has a felony record. Some of it is hard core though. a kid gets a felony at 18 & then never gets in trouble again the rest of his life. & at 70 still cant vote or own a fire arm. IMO their needs to be a statute of limitations on none violent offenders that stay out of trouble
If you have done your time ie paid your debt to society, why should you be further punished by not having the full rights of any other citizen?
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:16 PM   #1296
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
If you have done your time ie paid your debt to society, why should you be further punished by not having the full rights of any other citizen?
If it's none violent I agree. IMO you either have it in you to hit a female or you dnt. If you have it & got popped by the law. I have no sympathy.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:17 PM   #1297
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
I am not. I am just pointing out that under the bill rights the right of citizens to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Now please answer the question. In what way is "shall not be infringed" not plain language?
First of all, I'd hardly call the 2nd Amendment plain language. It is very awkwardly worded and structured.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So you want to focus on the part in bold--the right shall not be infringed. But what exactly is the right? You got the "well regulated" thing in there, along with "Militia," for starters.
What does "keep" mean?
What does "bear" mean?
What is an "Arm"?

I've read a few of the gun/2nd Am rulings, and I've never seen judge or justice say there is a right to any weapon you want, wherever you want. In one of them, I recall Scalia--even as he was striking down a handgun ban-- seeming to go out of his way to mention that a wide range of restrictions are acceptable under the 2nd Am. That's a guy who is always talking about plain language and original intent.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:27 PM   #1298
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Its pretty simple actually.

A well armed populace (this would be the well regulated militia as initially the United States had a very small standing army) is necessary to guard the state against enemies both internal and external (the security of a free state). For this reason, the government does not have the power to infringe upon the populace's right to own and carry weapons.

When the founding fathers wrote this notice they didn't exclude any weapons as during the Revolution some fighting units were privately funded including such weapons as cannons.

Its not hard language at all.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:35 PM   #1299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Its pretty simple actually.

A well armed populace (this would be the well regulated militia as initially the United States had a very small standing army) is necessary to guard the state against enemies both internal and external (the security of a free state). For this reason, the government does not have the power to infringe upon the populace's right to own and carry weapons.

When the founding fathers wrote this notice they didn't exclude any weapons as during the Revolution some fighting units were privately funded including such weapons as cannons.

Its not hard language at all.
That is pretty close to how I would word it in modern terms.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:41 PM   #1300
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I would even go so far as to say:

People have a right to own and carry weapons, including firearms, because a properly functioning civilian armed presence is a necessity in a free society.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:41 PM   #1301
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Its pretty simple actually.

A well armed populace (this would be the well regulated militia as initially the United States had a very small standing army) is necessary to guard the state against enemies both internal and external (the security of a free state). For this reason, the government does not have the power to infringe upon the populace's right to own and carry weapons.

When the founding fathers wrote this notice they didn't exclude any weapons as during the Revolution some fighting units were privately funded including such weapons as cannons.

Its not hard language at all.
OK, you're just making up some words and inserting them so it means what you want it to mean.

I'm not for banning guns, so don't think I am coming at this with that mindset.
The way the 2nd amendment is worded is hardly "clear," especially to a reader in 2014. I don't see how anyone can really argue that.

But who cares what I think, right? Well, is every judge and Supreme Court justice ever wrong? Because none of them believe there is an unlimited, unrestricted right to own/carry/use/etc. whatever weapon you want, where ever you want.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:44 PM   #1302
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
I would even go so far as to say:

People have a right to own and carry weapons, including firearms, because a properly functioning civilian armed presence is a necessity in a free society.
Nuclear weapons?
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:45 PM   #1303
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Nuclear weapons?
No. That would be pretty stupid.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:58 PM   #1304
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No. That would be pretty stupid.
I agree. Apparently GloucesterChief would argue that people do have that right.

A nuke is of course an extreme example, but once someone agrees that there is no right to a nuke, they have to agree that restrictions are in fact legal. It's just a matter of where to draw the line, and that will always be up for debate.
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:02 PM   #1305
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
I agree. Apparently GloucesterChief would argue that people do have that right.

A nuke is of course an extreme example, but once someone agrees that there is no right to a nuke, they have to agree that restrictions are in fact legal. It's just a matter of where to draw the line, and that will always be up for debate.

I'll give you better examples: Hand grenades, flame throwers or fully automatic rifles.
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