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Old 07-20-2012, 10:41 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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The Fiscal Cliff Approacheth

In an effort to make this thread sticky-worthy, I am going to update this OP to keep casual glancers informed.

This post is the official one-stop shopping of the key points/developments of the fiscal cliff negotiations.

Far as I understand, the fiscal cliff:

1. Gets rid of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.
2. Gets rid of the Bush tax cuts for everybody else.
3. Slashes defense spending by something like $500 billion.
4. Slashes domestic programs like the NIH, Head Start, and medicine/drug care for the poor by $500 billion.

The new idea is for Democrats to allow the cliff to hit, then immediately introduce a bill that would bring 2, 4, and some of 3 back. But not 1.

Here is a chart detailing exactly what the fiscal cliff is going to do, financially:

Spoiler!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
New CBO projection: if the fiscal cliff hits, we are in another recession, and lose two million jobs.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87L0JV20120822
The poor would be hurt by the fiscal cliff:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Overall, if the tax breaks from the 2009 stimulus are allowed to expire—the EITC and Child Tax Credit expansions, along with American Opportunity Credit for college tuition—the poorest 20 percent of Americans would see their taxes go up by $209 on average, reducing their after-tax income by 1.9 percent, according to the Tax Policy Center.
As would the middle class:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
According to estimates by the Tax Policy Center, more than half of all married couples will owe an additional tax of around $4,000 unless Congress acts. And more than a third of families with children will fall subject to the AMT, with parents of three or more children facing an extra tax of $4,700.

Among married couples with at least two children and adjusted gross income between $75,000 and $100,000, the center estimates that 84 percent will face a significantly higher tax bill this year because of the AMT.
There seems to be some consensus between the parties that substantial revenues want to be raised. Boehner and the GOP hopes that's through limiting tax deductions rather than tax raises.

Obama's opening offer, essentially:

Quote:
  • Allow the Bush tax cuts on high earners to expire. $849 billion
  • Limit itemized deductions to 28 percent, close some loopholes and deductions on high earners, eliminate tax breaks for oil and gas companies, eliminate the carried interest loophole, plus a few other items. $584 billion
  • Create a special "Buffett Rule" tax rate for millionaires. $47 billion
  • Restore the estate tax to 2009 levels. $143 billion
  • Limit corporate income shifting to low-tax countries. $148 billion
  • Other miscellaneous tax increases and reductions. About -$200 billion
  • Total: $1.6 trillion

Last edited by Direckshun; 11-14-2012 at 09:54 AM..
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:41 PM   #526
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
That’s not helping whatever case you think you’re making, stalker.
My case was only people inside the bubble would agree with you that Obama has doubled the deficit.

And guess who came calling: somebody who shares your bubble.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:56 PM   #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
My case was only people inside the bubble would agree with you that Obama has doubled the deficit.

And guess who came calling: somebody who shares your bubble.
That's a pretty circular argument.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:58 PM   #528
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
That's a pretty circular argument.
How so.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:01 PM   #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
My case was only people inside the bubble would agree with you that Obama has doubled the deficit.

And guess who came calling: somebody who shares your bubble.
None of which changes how oddly obsessive you’re being here, stalker.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:03 PM   #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Tomato, tomahto. It's both.
No, its not “both”. Deficits are the result of outspending income. Period.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:24 PM   #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
How so.
Since "bubble" isn't really a thing, you simply define it to include anyone who agrees with RadarChief thereby making your original statement true. That's circular.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:34 PM   #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
None of which changes how oddly obsessive you’re being here, stalker.
Part of my personality.

Or personality disorder, as some would say.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:36 PM   #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
No, its not “both”. Deficits are the result of outspending income. Period.
Look who's becoming the PC police all of a sudden.

Deficits are when receipts and expenditures are imbalanced, into the red.

However you want to spin that, as taxes being too low or spending being too high, is fine. But it's a bit trite to demand that everybody spin it the same way.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:37 PM   #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Since "bubble" isn't really a thing, you simply define it to include anyone who agrees with RadarChief thereby making your original statement true. That's circular.
It would, if that were the argument I was making.

As you're phrasing it here, it's yet another in a long pantheon of missed swings.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:49 PM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Look who's becoming the PC police all of a sudden.

Deficits are when receipts and expenditures are imbalanced, into the red.

However you want to spin that, as taxes being too low or spending being too high, is fine. But it's a bit trite to demand that everybody spin it the same way.
Accurately defining a word is not “spin”.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:49 PM   #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Part of my personality.

Or personality disorder, as some would say.
Get help.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:53 PM   #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
That's not exactly how it happened:





Except that deficits are not the result of "secret" things, they are the result of inadequate funding for government operations. Which means you can pare down government operations and/or bring in more revenue.

The deficit has become the way it's become because of expansive government spending (thanks to two wars on the credit card and exploding healthcare costs) with dwindling revenue (thanks to our non-surprise Bush tax cuts). Both will have to be addressed for the deficit to be righted.

I don't have any major issue with your take on this. My only addition would be that the best way to increase revenues is to have a strong economy with low unemployment. Each time you take a person from receiving unemployment, food stamps and so forth to a person paying taxes in excess of what they receive we have all won twice.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:53 PM   #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
Accurately defining a word is not “spin”.
Demanding that your definition is the only acceptable one is.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:54 PM   #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
Get help.
You're starting to sound just like that talking weasil ghost that follows me around.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:56 PM   #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishingRod View Post
I don't have any major issue with your take on this. My only addition would be that the best way to increase revenues is to have a strong economy with low unemployment. Each time you take a person from receiving unemployment, food stamps and so forth to a person paying taxes in excess of what they receive we have all won twice.
You won't find me disagreeing with that.
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