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Old 08-31-2012, 06:24 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Why people laugh at Creationists

Taking a lead from Killer Clown I thought I'd create a alternative thread to post some videos I like...

[EDIT New video here]

So on with the show:

Here's the Kent Hovind Theory:



"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

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Old 07-19-2013, 11:22 AM   #2641
BigChiefTablet BigChiefTablet is offline
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
And you think that quote disputes what he said? I'm not sure I understand. Why do you think the word "Constructed" disputes anything he said?
The quote specifically disputes that that the RNA enzymes were not designed or assembled in any thoughtful way. The RNA enzymes were designed with a specific result in mind.

In a more general sense, I'm saying that the article and the experiments it references do not prove abiogenesis. The article itself says that.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:47 AM   #2642
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Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
In a more general sense, I'm saying that the article and the experiments it references do not prove abiogenesis. The article itself says that.
You indicated that there was no experimental evidence of abiogenisis. I provided one example. I agree that this study alone does not prove abiogenisis. Nor do all the studies combined yet make an iron tight case such as exists for evolution.

That being said, RNA based life has been one of the leading theories of abiogenisis since the early 1960's. Since then it has been discovered that RNA can have catalytic properties and that it can self replicate. Mechanisms by which RNA building blocks (ribonucleotides) can form abiotically have been demonstrated, as have abiotic mechanisms by which they can form chains. The road blocks to abiogenesis are falling -- the gaps are getting smaller with time. Abiogenisis through RNA based life is taking on the look of a very good theory.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:55 AM   #2643
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Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
The quote specifically disputes that that the RNA enzymes were not designed or assembled in any thoughtful way. The RNA enzymes were designed with a specific result in mind.

In a more general sense, I'm saying that the article and the experiments it references do not prove abiogenesis. The article itself says that.
Again, you're making demands of the experiment that are way above the scope of what the experiment is trying to address. The experiment isn't claiming that they've solved the mystery of abiogenesis. You keep trying to fault small pieces of incremental evidence for not answering the largest of grand questions, which they were never meant to answer.

Here's what this experiment was intended to address:

Quote:
no one could demonstrate that RNA replication could be self-propagating
Some abiogenesis models are dependent on RNA replication. But it had never been proven that RNA had that capability. Creationism proponents have previously used that fact to argue against the possibility of an RNA world model. But it's now been proven possible.

And they didn't build or construct anything "Unnatural" like you're trying to make it sound. That's just simple misunderstanding about how enzymes and RNA work together.

Read this part:

Quote:
The goal was to take one of the RNA enzymes already developed in the lab that could perform the basic chemistry of replication, and improve it to the point that it could drive efficient, perpetual self-replication.

Lincoln synthesized in the laboratory a large population of variants of the RNA enzyme that would be challenged to do the job, and carried out a test-tube evolution procedure to obtain those variants that were most adept at joining together pieces of RNA.

Ultimately, this process enabled the team to isolate an evolved version of the original enzyme that is a very efficient replicator, something that many research groups, including Joyce's, had struggled for years to obtain. The improved enzyme fulfilled the primary goal of being able to undergo perpetual replication. "It kind of blew me away," says Lincoln.

Immortalizing Molecular Information

The replicating system actually involves two enzymes, each composed of two subunits and each functioning as a catalyst that assembles the other. The replication process is cyclic, in that the first enzyme binds the two subunits that comprise the second enzyme and joins them to make a new copy of the second enzyme; while the second enzyme similarly binds and joins the two subunits that comprise the first enzyme. In this way the two enzymes assemble each other - what is termed cross-replication.
They took several variants of the RNA enzyme, and smashed them together in a test tube and waited to see what happened. You're confusing that part to mean designed or controlled. But it's not. It's simply taking several of the best candidates for self replication, and putting them all together and seeing what happens. They didn't know what results they would get, it was dependent on the actual evolution that occurred during the experiment. It couldn't be controlled or designed, because it's never been observed to happen before, it's only what they suspected would happen.

And you're right, it doesn't prove abiogenesis. But it absolutely supports and provides evidence for the theory of RNA world abiogenesis. That's how science works. Science doesn't set out to answer the biggest questions first in an all or nothing approach like what you're demanding. It answers questions in small manageable pieces, to form an educated idea that grows as more evidence is discovered.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:38 PM   #2644
BigChiefTablet BigChiefTablet is offline
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Again, you're making demands of the experiment that are way above the scope of what the experiment is trying to address. The experiment isn't claiming that they've solved the mystery of abiogenesis. You keep trying to fault small pieces of incremental evidence for not answering the largest of grand questions, which they were never meant to answer.

Here's what this experiment was intended to address:



Some abiogenesis models are dependent on RNA replication. But it had never been proven that RNA had that capability. Creationism proponents have previously used that fact to argue against the possibility of an RNA world model. But it's now been proven possible.

And they didn't build or construct anything "Unnatural" like you're trying to make it sound. That's just simple misunderstanding about how enzymes and RNA work together.

Read this part:



They took several variants of the RNA enzyme, and smashed them together in a test tube and waited to see what happened. You're confusing that part to mean designed or controlled. But it's not. It's simply taking several of the best candidates for self replication, and putting them all together and seeing what happens. They didn't know what results they would get, it was dependent on the actual evolution that occurred during the experiment. It couldn't be controlled or designed, because it's never been observed to happen before, it's only what they suspected would happen.

And you're right, it doesn't prove abiogenesis. But it absolutely supports and provides evidence for the theory of RNA world abiogenesis. That's how science works. Science doesn't set out to answer the biggest questions first in an all or nothing approach like what you're demanding. It answers questions in small manageable pieces, to form an educated idea that grows as more evidence is discovered.

I was going to just let this die, but I guess I'm a masochist.

Quote:
And they didn't build or construct anything "Unnatural" like you're trying to make it sound.
"The goal was to take one of the RNA enzymes already developed in the lab ..."

"The subunits in the enzymes the team constructed each contain many nucleotides, so they are relatively complex and not something that would have been found floating in the primordial ooze."

They didn't just take several variants of the RNA enzyme as it occurs naturally and smash them together in a test tube, like you say. They took several variants of an RNA enzyme that they developed to contain many nucleotides, making it relatively complex compared to regular old RNA and they smashed those RNA enzymes together in a tube.

I'm glad they are doing the research, and it may be of great benefit to the medical community at some point. But you are being disingenuous saying they just crammed some random RNA in a tube and it behaved that way on its own. It behaved that way on its own after they developed it to do exactly that.

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Old 07-19-2013, 04:46 PM   #2645
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Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
What evidence was presented? I see evidence that they can tweak synthetic RNA in a lab, with forethought and intent. I see no evidence of it happening on its own, and even if it could, it isn't life.
Human manipulation and control (intelligence) inserted, all within the confines of the controlled environment of a lab.
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:58 PM   #2646
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If you cannot provide 100% proof (and even if you did I would ignore it) that means my belief in magic with zero evidence is true /bible guy~
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:21 PM   #2647
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If everything is God's plan why does he let people commit suicide?


Suicide condemns a person to hell in a lot of religions.


(I am sorry. One of my best friends in the world killed himself a couple of years ago, and my 1st cousin killed himself this week.)
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:55 PM   #2648
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Dude sorry to hear that. There's a pile of stuff that makes no sense in a god driven world. One thing I've always wondered is if we are special and made in gods image why isn't there some sign of something, anything, that is different than other animals. I mean does god have to defecate?

If not why did he chose to toss this unpleasantry in?
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s

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Old 07-19-2013, 09:58 PM   #2649
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Thanks Dave, but it is a subject that has always perplexed my feeble mind.


If God has a plan for everyone, why would the plan include someone condemning themselves to hell?


It is the one question that even pastors can't give me a straight answer on.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:00 PM   #2650
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This link has a number of animations that illustrate how things may have occured. The animations illustrate some of the main concepts of the reaearch papers. The RNA stuff us pretty cool.

Exploringorigins.org
No I know. I try to read some of the scientific journals in the raw and man you have to be steeped in that discipline to follow it easily. But it is just frikken amazing what they are able to do.
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Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:05 PM   #2651
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No I know. I try to read some of the scientific journals in the raw and man you have to be steeped in that discipline to follow it easily. But it is just frikken amazing what they are able to do.
it's funny, the ability to quickly digest the scientific literature/journal articles is one of the first skills you get during grad school. it can be challenging at first, but... it can be done efficiently, believe me. the key, really, is to not get lost in the details, don't be afraid to skim/take notes, and pay attention to the abstract--it'll give you the key ideas in the paper, from which you can build the framework to fill out the grand ideas of the paper.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:07 PM   #2652
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I haven't read much of it. I don't know if it was this thread or another. You tried to debate him and it was going quite poorly for you and you finally said **** it he might sound smart,but he isn't

It might have had something with the forming on the universe. He was head and shoulders above anybody else in the forum. Gave long Rico's type post, but unlike Rico his were interesting to ready.
, good God. BigCatDaddy LOVES him some "rico." Dude just freaking blasts me everywhere, whenever he gets the chance.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:17 PM   #2653
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
No I know. I try to read some of the scientific journals in the raw and man you have to be steeped in that discipline to follow it easily. But it is just frikken amazing what they are able to do.
I know what you mean. This PM I was digging into the original Science paper on the replicating RNA. Ended up reading parts of four different papers just because I kept getting interested in different facets of the origin of life question.

In terms of synthetic biology, we are where semiconductors were in the 1960s and we are on the same kind of Moore's law type trajectory. Over the next 30 years, synthetic biology is going to deliver things that blow people's minds.
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Old 07-20-2013, 01:56 PM   #2654
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If God has a plan for everyone, why would the plan include someone condemning themselves to hell?
.....without free will, there is no perfection.

can you force your kids to love you?
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:41 PM   #2655
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"You canít just say there is a God because well, the world is beautiful.

You have to account for bone cancer in children.

You have to account for the fact that almost all animals in the wild live under stress with not enough to eat and will die violent and bloody deaths.

There is not any way that you can just choose the nice bits and say that means there is a God and ignore the true fact of what nature is. The wonder of nature must be taken in its totality and it is a wonderful thing.

It is absolutely marvelous and the idea that an atheist or a humanist if you want to put it that way, doesnít marvel and wonder at reality, at the way things are, is nonsensical. The point is we wonder all the way."

Stephen Fry
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Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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