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Old 08-31-2012, 07:24 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Why people laugh at Creationists

Taking a lead from Killer Clown I thought I'd create a alternative thread to post some videos I like...

[EDIT New video here]

So on with the show:

Here's the Kent Hovind Theory:



"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

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Old 07-31-2013, 03:05 PM   #2761
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I don't. How do you know the Big Bang is true?
Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation certainly provides some evidence of the Big Bang. And there are other forms of evidence as well.
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:06 PM   #2762
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Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation certainly provides some evidence of the Big Bang. And there are other forms of evidence as well.
How does that prove the big bang?
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:10 PM   #2763
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Is the Cosmic Microwave Background Proof of the Big Bang?

The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMB) has been hailed since its discovery in 1965 as the ultimate proof of the Big Bang theory. It is believed by many scientists, professors, astronomers, and students to be the echo of creation called for by the theory. However, is it really?

Big Bang theory predicts that the mammoth event that created all of existence should leave behind some remnant, some trace, of its occurrence. That trace should manifest as a very weak background signal visible throughout the whole of the universe. On the surface, the CMB seems to be the evidence needed to prove the theory. Deeper examination, however, reveals another story.

The CMB matches many of the requirements of theory. For one, it is the only known source of omni-directional radiation. That is, it can be seen equally well in every direction (Hinshaw, 2007 & Singh, 2005). For another, it is isotropic, or very smooth. The observed radiation is identical in every direction to one part in 100,000 (Hinshaw, 2007 & Singh, 2005).

Despite these facts, the CMB also has a number of problems in living up to the expectations of the theory. More precisely, although it meets some of the requirements for the echo of creation, it does not meet them all - not by a far cry.

There is a veritable mountain of evidence showing how far the CMB deviates from the requirements of theory. This article will examine only a few of these inconsistencies.

First, the echo of creation, by its nature, must originate from the farthest reaches of the universe. While, according to modern science, it is believed that the whole of the universe was filled with the photons that comprise the CMB at the moment of creation, the radiation that would have begun its journey through the cosmos near the Earth's current location would have long since moved on. All electromagnetic radiation must travel at the speed of light; the photons of that energy that were here at the beginning of time are now long gone. Likewise, the energy now being received from the CMB must have traveled across the whole of the cosmos to reach this location at this time.

Because of this, there should be evidence imprinted on the CMB showing a sort of record of its travels. Studies conducted by Prof. Richard Lieu at the University of Alabama used NASA's own Wilkonson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) to look for evidence of this passage.

The First study, as recounted by Space Daily in 2005, looked for evidence of gravitational lensing in the CMB. Gravitational lensing is an effect of the gravitational attraction of massive clusters of galaxies. When radiation passes through such a powerful field, it is magnified, like being seen through a lens. This would leave a clear image on the CMB in the areas that have been so magnified. No evidence of the effect was found, so the CMB could not have originated from beyond the galaxy clusters; compliance with the requirements of the physical laws is not optional.

Another study by Prof. Lieu's team, published in the Astrophysical Journal in 2006, looked for evidence of a shadow' effect, called the Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effect, in the CMB. This is another requirement needed to prove that the CMB came from beyond nearby galaxy clusters. The effect manifests in a fashion similar to a silhouette. If a light source is behind an object, relative to an observer, then that object should cast a shadow forward onto the observer. This effect was not found in the CMB either.

Additional factors present significant problems for the case of the CMB actually being the echo of creation called for to prove the Big Bang theory. For one, the CMB does not occur at the peak wavelength predicted by Big Bang theory. After the concept of an echo of creation was first conceived by Gamow, Alpher, and Herman in the 1940's, theorists and mathematicians attempted to predict what the current frequency, or peak wavelength, of the radiation would be. The closest estimate was predicted at a wavelength of 1mm, corresponding to about five degrees Kelvin. Most were considerably higher, with the "best" value being predicted at roughly 50 degrees Kelvin (Singh, 2005). The CMB exists at just over 2.7 degrees, roughly half the nearest value calculated (Hinshaw, 2005).

This is a significant dilemma for the true believers, as, in order for the echo of creation to have been stretched to its current peak wavelength of 2mm, it would have to be exposed to 200% of the expansion forces that were causing it to shift. This can only mean that, if the CMB is indeed the echo of creation, the universe is either stretching out twice as fast as theory allows for, which is not evidenced by observation, or that the universe has existed for twice as long as theorized, allowing the radiation to be further distorted by the forces of expansion for twice as long.

Either case would be disastrous for the Big Bang theory. The first, of a hyper-fast universe, would give rise to conditions that would prohibit the formation of stars, galaxies, planets, and clusters. The second scenario does not coincide with the time line of the universe's evolution. Were the universe twice as old as believed, it would cause all manner of difficulties for theory, from the predictions of the elemental composition of the universe's chemistry, which have been confirmed by observation as being roughly correct under the present interpretation of the universe's timeline, to the detection of photons emitted by very distant galaxies. If the universe had existed for twice as long, then calculations of the velocities of those galaxies would be drastically incorrect, resulting in a total reshaping of the observed arrangement of the cosmos. Such a gigantic error in positioning would create numerous difficulties of its own, including the very detection of such extremely distant light sources; such should not be visible.

For another, it is quite firmly established that the whole of any and every emitted spectrum is determined exclusively by the temperature of the emitting body at the time of emission. This property is immutable; the size, mass, or shape of the emitter is irrelevant. This includes the CMB, which, as per theory, was first loosed upon the vastness of the cosmos when the universe reached a certain temperature, between 12,000 and 4,000 degrees Kelvin (Hinshaw, 2005). It is at that temperature that the whole of the universe first became transparent to electromagnetic radiation, and so the CMB should possess a spectrum indicative of that temperature. This single determining factor establishes what the peak value of the spectrum should be, as well as its slope and shape. Any modern body that presently exists within that temperature range MUST produce a spectrum identical to the CMB's at the time of its propagation.

However, as mentioned previously, theory also requires that the echo radiation would have been stretched by the expansion of the universe, also a facet of Big Bang theory, to much longer wavelengths, a phenomenon known as cosmological redshift. It is important to note that this will not result in a spectrum identical to one originating at the CMB's current temperature. The CMB would still possess its original spectrum, merely stretched out over a much longer range of wavelengths. For example, a spectrum that begins at 2nm and ends at 20nm, stretched by the cosmological redshift by 100%, will now exist from 4nm (double the original value) to 40nm (also double). The wavelengths of each element of the spectrum are affected individually, resulting not only in a doubling of each value, but a doubling in the whole of the spectrum's length. Ergo, spectral elements at higher wavelengths are altered to a greater extent than their counterparts at lower original wavelengths. Objects presently emitting at a peak wavelength equal to a spectrum that has been shifted have not been altered in this way, so will not possess spectra even remotely similar to those that have been redshifted to such a high degree.

The Big Bang theory stipulates that the CMB should have been redshifted in this way by a factor of approximately 4,000 (Hinshaw, 2005 & Singh, 2005), based on the fact that its current peak wavelength falls at approximately 2mm, which is 4,000 times as great as the proposed peak wavelength at the time of propagation. Using this information, a comparison can be made between the CMB's spectrum today with the spectra emitted by bodies in the same temperature range as the CMB would have been at the time of its emission. This can be done by either compressing each value of the CMB by the corresponding amount, restoring it to its original state, and comparing that reconstituted spectrum with those of emitters that presently exist in the same state, or by applying the same factor of cosmological redshift to the spectra of the comparison emitters, resulting in spectra that have been stretched by an identical amount. Only in this way can the effects of cosmological redshift be taken into account, allowing for a proper comparison between the spectra to be made. Either way, the spectra should all share an obvious similarity in length, shape, peak, and slope.

Data was obtained from NASA's website to construct the graph, shown here in its own image display box. Two stars are used for comparison. Sol (the sun) marks the low end of the CMB's possible original temperature range, and Spica, existing at 28,000 degrees K, considerably exceeds the CMB's maximum possible origin temperature.

The spectrum of the CMB has been compressed by a factor of 10,000, 150% more than required to satisfy theory and compensate for the effects of redshift, in order to place the peak between the two comparison spectra. If theory is correct, and the CMB is the echo of creation called for, then the curved slope of its spectrum should resemble those of the comparison stars. For ease of viewing, the graph cuts off at a wavelength of 4,000nm, and the spectra have been normalized, so that their peaks all occur at a value of approximately 400.

Obviously, the CMB does not bear any resemblance to the two stars. Its spectrum continues on, clear off the edge of the graph. In fact, even under this excessive degree of compression, the CMB's spectrum is nearly 50 times longer than either of the two stars'. Spatial expansion is not able to account for these properties. Because its spectrum does not match those in the proper temperature range, then this can only mean that the CMB did not emerge from a field in the range required by theory. Ergo, the CMB could not have originated during the window of time when the universe existed at these temperatures.

The CMB does not meet the requirements of gravitational lensing, nor the shadow effect. Both of these facts show that the CMB could not have traveled to observatories on Earth from beyond the nearest galaxy clusters. The CMB also does not possess the proper spectrum to have been emitted at the time when the universe first became transparent to electromagnetic radiation. Since the CMB neither originates from the ends of the cosmos, nor was emitted as a consequence of the birth of the universe, then it can only be concluded that the CMB is not the echo of creation called for by the Big Bang theory.

Further, since the CMB is not the echo of creation, and since, as previously stated, it is the only omni-directional radiation in existence, and thus the only possible candidate for the echo radiation, then it can be deduced that the echo of creation, an absolute necessity for the Big Bang, does not exist.

In other words, the Big Bang requires that there be a relic radiation. There is no relic radiation. Ergo, the Big Bang theory is false.

As the renowned physicist, Richard Feynman, once said, "It doesn't matter how beautiful your guess is or how smart you are or what your name is. If it disagrees with experience, it's wrong. That's all there is to it."

Post-script:
It is a fallacy to presume that, simply because "everyone" accepts a theory as correct that it is so. Einstein proved the point when, as a patent clerk, he published a single paper that overthrew what all the 'experts' of the time knew. It is an even greater sin, scientifically, to state that an invalid theory is still valid only because there is no alternative. Wrong is wrong, and no amount of crying, whining, or wishing will change that fact. If whim could change reality from what it is to what we might like it to be, then the Earth would be flat, and the sun would orbit it.

As stated in the paper, there is a mountain of hard evidence, not 'indicating' that there might be a problem with the Big Bang, but outright contradicting it. Again, only a meager handful of issues were addressed in this work. Any scientist who continues to hold 'faith' in this new Religion of Confirmationism (the practice of assumptive correctness - seeing 'proof' where there is none) in spite of the facts is no scientist at all, but a Priest in labcoat vestments. There is only one logical recourse - go back to the drawing board.

References:

Belrad, B. (2007). (CMB Comparison Graph). http://www.belraduniverse.com/graph.jpg

Belrad, B. (2007). Testing the Big Bang. Lulu.

Belrad, B. (2006). The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation. Lulu.

Hinshaw, G. (2005, December 15). Tests of the Big Bang: The CMB. NASA.

Lieu, R., Mittaz, J., & Zhang, S. (2006) The Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effect in a sample of 31 clusters: A comparison between the x-ray predicted and WMAP observed decrement. Astrophysical Journal, 648(1), 176-199.

Singh, S. (2005). Big Bang. New York, NY: Harper Perennial.

Short, N. (2007). Spectral analysis of star composition. NASA.

Space Daily. (2005). New look at microwave background may cast doubts on Big Bang Theory.

http://voices.yahoo.com/is-cosmic-mi...ig-459695.html
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:11 PM   #2764
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:35 PM   #2765
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How does that prove the big bang?
I never said it proved the Big Bang. I said it provided some evidence. And no offense to your wall of text paste, but that's the opinion of some Yahoo network contributor, and it's pretty poorly written using fairly dated information. Try some other links from some actual credible sources. I'm guessing you choose that link because it was the first search result for "Is the Cosmic Microwave Background Proof of the Big Bang?" that was negative in nature. Try some of the other links and read up more.
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:52 PM   #2766
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We don't know what laws, if any, apply to anything outside our universe, so it doesn't necessarily imply that nothing turned into God. Things like time, space and matter may not even be involved. God simply is. And always has been.

Can I prove that? No more than you can prove something came from nothing and the universe appeared.
God simply is and always has been? And that's OK, yet you say this:

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And I'm arguing against completely unnatural, physics-breaking, spontaneous appearance of a universe from nothing without evidence to the contrary.
That's why I called it hypocritical. You're arguing against unnatural physics-breaking ideas in one post. Then defending your opinion by saying we don't know what unnatural physics-breaking laws if any apply outside of the universe.
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Old 07-31-2013, 04:01 PM   #2767
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God simply is and always has been? And that's OK, yet you say this:



That's why I called it hypocritical. You're arguing against unnatural physics-breaking ideas in one post. Then defending your opinion by saying we don't know what unnatural physics-breaking laws if any apply outside of the universe.
I see the complexity of the universe, the magnificence of the simplest form of life, and I see evidence of a creator. You see a happy accident. I don't have all the answers, I just want the ****ing atheists to admit that they don't either.
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Old 07-31-2013, 04:03 PM   #2768
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We have photographic evidence. As a amateur astronomer I study these things. I see the experiments I understand what the evidence is showing us. It's abundantly clear the Big Bang occurred and just as obvious there was something before it too.
bah, evidence smevidence what's it all mean anyway?

maybe it was just a little bang...

or maybe it was the special effects guys on venus ****ing around, who knows?

i vote for the special effects guys...

otoh, it might have been a motorcycle backfiring that started this universe...

yeah, that's it, a motorcycle...
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Old 07-31-2013, 04:07 PM   #2769
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bah, evidence smevidence what's it all mean anyway?

maybe it was just a little bang...

or maybe it was the special effects guys on venus ****ing around, who knows?

i vote for the special effects guys...

otoh, it might have been a motorcycle backfiring that started this universe...

yeah, that's it, a motorcycle...
You're a dick. You can act like you are smarter than everyone else, but you're just a dick.
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Old 07-31-2013, 04:12 PM   #2770
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You're a dick. You can act like you are smarter than everyone else, but you're just a dick.
no, no, no, i'm a bleeding vagina...

didn't you have sex education in your school?
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Old 07-31-2013, 04:48 PM   #2771
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I see the complexity of the universe, the magnificence of the simplest form of life, and I see evidence of a creator. You see a happy accident. I don't have all the answers, I just want the ****ing atheists to admit that they don't either.
Who is claiming they have all the answers? That's just not true. I certainly would never claim that.

And I don't think the universe is a happy accident. I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it's wrong. I fully admit that I don't know. I think the scientific theory is much more plausible than the biblical belief, and I don't think it's even close. But I certainly would never claim I know for certain.
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Old 07-31-2013, 04:56 PM   #2772
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:07 PM   #2773
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Who is claiming they have all the answers? That's just not true. I certainly would never claim that.

And I don't think the universe is a happy accident. I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it's wrong. I fully admit that I don't know. I think the scientific theory is much more plausible than the biblical belief, and I don't think it's even close. But I certainly would never claim I know for certain.
I admire your willingness to say you don't know for certain. I find that a rare quality on both sides of the argument.

As far as where I got the idea that you think the universe is a happy accident, I assume that since you dismiss intent and creation that the alternative is random chance, or, an accident. Please clarify.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:12 PM   #2774
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no, no, no, i'm a bleeding vagina...

didn't you have sex education in your school?
Is it worse to call someone a bleeding vagina or a menopausal vagina? Just something to think about. Frankly, bleeding asshole seems worse than either of those.
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:52 PM   #2775
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Who is claiming they have all the answers? That's just not true. I certainly would never claim that.

And I don't think the universe is a happy accident. I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it's wrong. I fully admit that I don't know. I think the scientific theory is much more plausible than the biblical belief, and I don't think it's even close. But I certainly would never claim I know for certain.
This is where most nonbelievers I know stand. Strangely the people who follow books that were written long after the events they report happened. After centuries of reverse engineering and countless revisions there are still numerous contradictions along with silly stories of magic. Oddly these people demand 100% proof if you doubt their beliefs. I put in an effort to be nice but their completely unwarranted arrogance gets pretty ****ing irritating at times~
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RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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