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Old 09-06-2012, 07:29 PM  
RINGLEADER RINGLEADER is offline
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How Do You Grow the Economy From the Middle Out

I keep hearing this line from the Dems. How, precisely, do you grow the economy "from the middle out?"
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:47 AM   #46
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And you're relying on the notion that a business owner reinvests his tax breaks into the company rather than his own damn pocket as well. I'll take an easy guess that the middle class use a higher percentage of their disposable income on consumer goods than the wealthly do. It's not really making an assumption and relying on the middle class to use their tax breaks on consumer spending rather than having the ability to put it in any savings. It is a reality that the majority of middle class live paycheck to paycheck and don't always have the ability to put money into savings. You want tax dollars to be reinvested back into the economy at the fastest rate possible. Give it to the people that either can't hold onto the money, or have to simply use it to live. That is just basic common sense on human behavior.

But by all means, give it to the guy who has no reason or intention to move that money but straight back into his personal piggy bank. And then wonder about stagnation, while blaming it on those lazy middle classers who want nothing but another handout.
You need to re-read my post.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:49 AM   #47
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One thing you could do immediately is revise some of the Fair Labor Standards Act (which governs overtime and exemption from overtime laws) to limit/eliminate certain classes of what are currently "exempt" employees. By exempt, these employees can be made to work heinous overtime hours for no additional pay. It's great for employers but not so great for overworked employees. Would probably also force a fair number of larger companies to hire as well, since they'd otherwise be forced to pay time-and-a-half etc.

Would need to study the degree to which this would hurt smaller businesses, however, who might not be able to afford the hit. I know for a fact, however, that large corporations in down economies are abuisng the crap out of this to squeeze their workforce to hell and gone.
This is an incredibly stupid idea. Speaking from firsthand experience in the manufacturing business. There are times that a job has to get done or companies will lose millions. You can't have your labor, engineer or salesman leave without the job being done. Stay in the wordsmithing business Chowda you are no businessman.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:51 AM   #48
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"I think the fastest way to restoration of the middle class is significant increases in the minimum wage."

Just playing devilís advocate. But wouldnít raising the minimum wage to an amount that would actually help, cut the number of people a business could afford to hire thus causing more unemployment?

It seems to me that we ( the United states) need to develop an new resource/technology/product that the rest of of the world needs to get from us so that dollars and wealth are flowing into the country at a greater rate. What that would be, I donít know.
That's a fair question but it has been answered. You're suggesting trickle down and after 30 years the facts are in. It has been a dramatic failure leading to depressed wages, profit motives driven by cost cutting and not expansion, reduction in resources spent on innovation etc. We've taken the prime out of the pump. It is no secret that consumer spending is a huge part of the economy. When you make it impossible to work your way into the middle class you limit the markets for goods and services the super rich no longer needs. It becomes the climate of survival we are stuck in now. President Clinton make the case when citing that in the last 50 years, 28 years the GOP had the presidency, they created 24 million jobs. But Democrats having the presidency for 24 years creating 42 million jobs. But the outcome was clear, the wealth created across the spectrum not only benefited those of limited means, it ignited spectacular wealth at the top. With tax rates too low as Arthur Laffer warned we destroy our own markets, and what happened...we had no choice but to become a service oriented economy that you cannot leverage, a basic principle of economics. Now if corporations didn't sustain the labor they need inspite of higher wages they would produce less, be less attractive to investors, and even investors would have less to funnel into markets allowing everyone to have a stake in the gain. This is the problem Laffer warned about...the rich are too rich. I'm all for investor gains, but sustainable ones that lift everyone's boat, not a climate that leaves millions of people unable to help each other through market expansion. The CEO of GE recently suggested that the game for them is now overseas, paying zero taxes. Why does a faceless entity like a corporation need some vague 'quality of life' consideration? It's not just about fairness here, it about theory that empowers a nation for good, not survival of the fitest. This is what a Christian nation should never aspire to do, become so indifferent we become unable to function as good samaritans.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:55 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by RubberSponge View Post
And you're relying on the notion that a business owner reinvests his tax breaks into the company rather than his own damn pocket as well. I'll take an easy guess that the middle class use a higher percentage of their disposable income on consumer goods than the wealthly do..


As a small business owner I'll tell you that is exactly what happens. My first year of business I struggled and fought and clawed and worked 2 and 3 part time jobs in addition to my company. The 2nd year there was a tax incentive in the state that eliminated the company portion of state tax and some other incentives, that allowed me to hire my first employee.

When the work is there, but the funds aren't or the numbers don't quite pencil with the additional costs and bullshit associated with having employees, that extra money is the difference. I had put several years of my savings into starting up my venture and do you know where some of that money came from? Tax refunds that I put into my savings account pocket.

I'm not wealthy and I ****ing built that.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:56 AM   #50
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Iowanian, are you a partner with someone(s), or are you a solo?
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:01 AM   #51
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I will say that I started my company with 1 partner, brideowanian.

The company has grown and the structure has changed and that's all I care to share in public light.

The 2nd company was with 2 other partners. 1 thing stopped that from being a job creator, government regulations that make zero sense made it unfeasible if you weren't already a large existing company in that industry.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:04 AM   #52
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I was just curious as to whether you file S corporate form or file under Subchapter K. No problem if you don't want to share. I'm studying partnership taxation and would love to get the business owner's perspective. I got the sense from a rural Iowa lawyer this summer that he set most of his farming partnerships (not saying you are one) up as S corporations, and I find that curious.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:13 AM   #53
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Well, I could sort of see how you can do a short-term stimulus from the middle out with money, but I still don't understand where that money that is being passed out is supposed to come from or how passing the money out creates future members of the middle class.

The biggest problem that the left has with this kind of talk is that I can't find the practical economic reasoning that shows that it is sustainable or works? I'd really like to hear the explanation from those that support Obama since this, coupled with "fairness" seem to be the motivating factors that drive his economic message.

I just don't see how you sustain an economy with this approach. Doing things that aren't as efficient or rewarding in the name of morality is stupid when you have a 16 trillion dollar axe hanging over your head.
Growing from the middle out is all rhetorical nonsense. It can't be done unless of course we get what Obama wants which is a huge Govt. with more and more people working for the Govt. Then you can grow it for awhile until the private sector cannot support the model any longer and it collapses on itself.

No, the ONLY true way to build a healthy middle class is to grow businesses that are sized from less than ten to about 2000 employees. These businesses are the backbone of America. Obama likes to talk about building things in the USA. I can tell you that if the Govt. gave tax breaks for manufacturers to put million dollar milling and boring type of equipment in the USA then they would. Right now it's better/cheaper to Mfg. in China with that machine and then box up the product and ship it back to the USA to get put together into a final product.

There's a lot that could be done to incentify manufacturers to spend on cap ex. in the US and in turn that has a multiplying effect where companies buy from each other (which creates jobs) and they in turn build things in the US and that grows these companies. (Which creates still more jobs)

We also need a healthy retail consumer but they need a job first. Obama is hostile towards the private sector. He wants to raise taxes on Companies whose owners make $250,000 because they have organized their companies in a way that has them run their profits through their personal taxes. This will KILL job growth.

What I think needs to be done is the following;

1) Cut corporate tax rates to bring mfg. jobs back into the USA. Make it cheaper to Mfg. in the USA and jobs will be created

2) Eliminate loops holes for the truly rich (In my mind those are take home pay people who make $1Million or more in salary. We could argue that maybe it's $750,000 ... Tax their take home NOT the revenue from their companies.

NOTE: Corn should be going into our food supply not our gas tank. You can only grow so much of it. Either scale it back, reduce or eliminate the subsidy and get it back into the food supply to lower the costs of everything from Ketchup to Steak.

3) Make everyone pay some federal tax. Bush made a huge mistake letting nearly 1/2 of the population pay nothing. Even if it's a ham sandwich everyone should have skin in the game.

4) Incentify mega corporations to grow by letting them drill for energy in the USA. I'm talking Oil, Nat.Gas, Coal, Nuclear and Wind/Solar. Then tax their profits a bit higher. They will make more money but the risk will be worth it for them and they will grow profits and pay more to the treasury. Gas prices will go down which in turn will lower food prices.

4) CUT the size of the Federal Govt. The Feds are bloated. We are running Trillion dollar deficits. This includes a modest cut to the military. I SAID MODEST.

5) Re-organize social entitlements going forward. We've got to re-structure the safety net without destroying it for current older people but take into consideration the fact that younger people will live longer and will be healthier due to advancements in medicine. Like Ryan says if your less than 55 it will change, over? then don't worry your set.

6) Re-structure, replace Obamacare so that it creates competition and responsibility with the provider and the consumer. Open it up. I'm not an expert but we have to get to the point where we shop medical care at least as well as we do a new car. Keep some elements of Obamacare in place, pre-existing conditions is one. Eliminate others.. No reason a healthy 26 year old man or woman needs to be on mommy and daddy's insurance. That's crap, get a job and get you're own insurance. Create a catastrophic coverage safety net for the suddenly seriously ill so caps don't limit out and crush the savings of hard working people. If your kid gets sick and needs $2M worth or medical care you shouldn't go bankrupt trying to keep him alive because you get capped out. That's a moral imperative and we should all rally around that.

There's more but this is a good start and this is what I would expect Romney/Ryan to do based on their speeches and background.

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Old 09-07-2012, 09:14 AM   #54
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There are several reasons an S corp is better in some circumstances than an LLC or Lmt Partnership. It's also a bigger pain in the butt.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:19 AM   #55
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There are several reasons an S corp is better in some circumstances than an LLC or Lmt Partnership. It's also a bigger pain in the butt.
S is a bigger pain? I was under the impression that K was a bigger pain, because of the accounting procedures. But I don't know much about S, so there might be that there, too. I've read of one advantage of an S corp: shareholder can be an employee. I still have to understand the full implications of that.

S corporations aren't even covered under either the Corporate Tax and Partnership Tax courses at Iowa Law. It seems to be more of a practitioner thing.

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Old 09-07-2012, 09:31 AM   #56
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There are piles of issues, the way income is taxed, the way payroll is taxed, requirements with unemployment, workforce development, dept of revenue and on and on.

After a few years, I'm still not an expert on it. Depending on the business, the type of income, the sources of income, where your expenses go, number of employees, type of credit(are you operating under corporate credit or funding your own)...

many many variables make 1 a better type of company over another for each situation.

Liability and separating personal finances and holdings from a company are major considerations as well.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:41 AM   #57
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Okay, one more question: did you have an accountant or a lawyer do your business tax returns?
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:59 AM   #58
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You need to re-read my post.

Uh, yeah, uh...

my apologies
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:14 AM   #59
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As a small business owner I'll tell you that is exactly what happens. My first year of business I struggled and fought and clawed and worked 2 and 3 part time jobs in addition to my company. The 2nd year there was a tax incentive in the state that eliminated the company portion of state tax and some other incentives, that allowed me to hire my first employee.

When the work is there, but the funds aren't or the numbers don't quite pencil with the additional costs and bullshit associated with having employees, that extra money is the difference. I had put several years of my savings into starting up my venture and do you know where some of that money came from? Tax refunds that I put into my savings account pocket.

I'm not wealthy and I ****ing built that.
I admire your resolve but don't think much of how you view issues related to your employee. When you can change your demeanor in the way you view your employee you will be wealthy. Until you do, you'll constantly be looking the government for incentives to compensate for your personal shortcoming. Tough words? Sure, but they are only to wake you up. I'm pulling for you to succeed, and for your employee to succeed too, who wouldn't have had a chance unless your government put some faith in YOU. Ironically, that's exactly what President Obama said to you last night.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:15 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Iowanian View Post
As a small business owner I'll tell you that is exactly what happens. My first year of business I struggled and fought and clawed and worked 2 and 3 part time jobs in addition to my company. The 2nd year there was a tax incentive in the state that eliminated the company portion of state tax and some other incentives, that allowed me to hire my first employee.

When the work is there, but the funds aren't or the numbers don't quite pencil with the additional costs and bullshit associated with having employees, that extra money is the difference. I had put several years of my savings into starting up my venture and do you know where some of that money came from? Tax refunds that I put into my savings account pocket.

I'm not wealthy and I ****ing built that.
A small business owner I understand can use any amount of capital available. But let's be honest here, not every company is a small business.

What i would think could inject a large amount of cash back into business is a simple single payer healthcare system.m Could you imagine the finanicial burden lifted off of businesses that would no longer have to shell out money for employer provided health insurance premiums? My lord. Talk about businesses saving billions upon billions.
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