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Old 09-06-2012, 06:34 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Because of Dodd Frank, Big Banks might not have to break up.

Not that they were anyway.

Breaking up the biggest banks, argues Phillip Swagel, will only send investing clients to shadow banks, which are pathetically regulated by comparison.

I loved this line which is in the piece below:

Quote:
Dodd-Frank allows the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. to keep a failing bank running, but shareholders will be wiped out and bondholders, not taxpayers, will cover any government losses.
I bolded the best part below, highlighting how Dodd-Frank may be powerful enough to allow the big banks to potentially fail without putting taxpayers on the line.

Interesting.....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...o-succeed.html

Don’t Make Banks Too Small to Succeed
By Phillip Swagel
Sep 5, 2012 5:30 PM CT

Calls by former Citigroup Inc. Chief Executive Officer Sanford Weill and others to break up the big banks reflect lingering public fear and anger toward financial institutions that seem too big to fail.

These calls, however, ignore the unintended consequences of making our global banks too small to succeed: Much of the business will migrate to non-U.S. banks and the less-regulated shadow banking sector. Weill and the rest also neglect to consider key reforms that protect taxpayers from a potential failure.

In a global economy, there is a need for financial institutions with scale and global capacity. Large banks offer their customers products, services and infrastructure that smaller banks cannot match, from multicity branch networks to global coverage that lowers costs. Philadelphia-based chemical company FMC Corp. (FMC), for example, relies on large banks to fund its $1.5 billion revolving credit line and to offer worldwide support for its financing needs.

The global transaction services that big banks provide to governments, multinational corporations and institutions simply couldn’t be replicated as efficiently or as cheaply by smaller banks, or even a patchwork of smaller ones. As JPMorgan Chase & Co. CEO Jamie Dimon recently pointed out, it takes a certain scale to offer a $5 billion credit line.

Progress Made

Too-big-to-fail is a serious issue, but there has been more progress on this front than is widely understood. The orderly liquidation authority in the 2010 Dodd-Frank financial-reform law means that large banks can and will be allowed to fail in the future. Dodd-Frank allows the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. to keep a failing bank running, but shareholders will be wiped out and bondholders, not taxpayers, will cover any government losses.

The law prohibits bondholders from receiving a taxpayer bailout and instead requires them to take “haircuts.” This means that investors thinking of providing funding to a risky bank know in advance that they will take losses if things go bad. This reverses the previous advantage of large banks in obtaining low-cost funding from investors who expected to be made whole from a government bailout.


Orderly liquidation authority isn’t perfect. There will still be government intervention in financial markets, and Dodd- Frank formalizes that. But the intervention will impose costs on bank investors, which in turn will reduce large banks’ funding advantage. Some argue that this broad power is insufficient, and that banks over a certain size should be told to shrink or be forcibly broken up. This argument is based on faulty analysis.

First, it overstates the danger that big banks pose to the U.S. economy post-Dodd-Frank. Unlike in other regions, the U.S. financial system is small relative to the economy it supports, after adjusting for different accounting standards. According to the Federal Reserve, the assets of the top five U.S. banks equal 56 percent of gross domestic product. The five largest German banks have assets that total 116 percent of GDP and in the U.K., the top five are at 309 percent of GDP, according to their central banks.

In addition, growth in the formal banking sector over the past 20 years has lagged behind the increase in U.S. exports and the gain in the Standard & Poor’s 500 stock index over the same period. There is arguably less capital in the banking sector than needed to support strong U.S. growth.

Second, the break-up-the-banks argument underestimates the negative consequences of forced downsizing. Some services offered by big American lenders will migrate to regional and community banks and credit unions, which are vital participants in a well-diversified U.S. financial system. But large banks in other countries and lightly regulated firms in the shadow banking system will snatch up a great deal of the business.

Shadow Banks

Shadow banks are almost three times the size of the formal banking sector, and they are less transparent and less regulated, even with heightened attention from the newly created Financial Stability Oversight Council. Lending through shadow banking channels such as securitization or repurchase agreements might not be covered by a taxpayer guarantee, but failures in these parts of the financial system during the crisis brought about government intervention all the same.

One need only look at the situation with money-market mutual funds, where one fund’s failure during the crisis put the entire economy at risk and required the government to intervene. This part of the shadow banking system has fended off badly needed reform. Far from ending too-big-to-fail, breaking up the banks would merely push business into even larger overseas banks or to financial firms with less oversight.

Too-big-to-fail needed to be addressed. It was. Breaking up large banks imposes economic costs without corresponding benefits in terms of financial stability. It would be better to focus on making the overall system safer without handing an advantage to one part of the financial system over the other.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:20 PM   #2
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Dodd-Frank is a classic example of how regulations consume an ungodly amount of expenses. I know of lawyers who work on Dodd Frank. They spend hundreds of hours per month on this. It's not just reading the enormous amount of paperwork and figuring out what it means, it's also building action plans. In most cases, the restructures cost an ungodly amount of hassle, time, resources, and money to change things that didn't need to be changed.

In many cases, I saw perfectly good banks get sold off because holding the bank was just too risky. How much did that company lose? How devastating was this legislation that they decided that they were better off selling a money-maker instead of keeping it and incurring the regulatory cost?

And baked in, they also need to hold enough cash in reserves, in the event that they accidentally violate Dodd-Frank.

I get that there needs to be some level of regulation. But politicians just don't get how much money gets wasted when companies have to figure out how to react to legislation.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:04 PM   #3
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I will do something rare here... defend Dodd-Frank. I can point to a dozen problems but let's face facts. SOMETHING had to be done. It needs a ton of streamlining and that will happen after we get past this painful adjustment period... for now, I'll reserve most of my judgments on it.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:54 PM   #4
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Yea, this guy can eat a dick.

Investment banking activities need to be separated from regular banking. There is no justifiable reason to backstop those activities.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:49 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I will do something rare here... defend Dodd-Frank. I can point to a dozen problems but let's face facts. SOMETHING had to be done. It needs a ton of streamlining and that will happen after we get past this painful adjustment period... for now, I'll reserve most of my judgments on it.
Dodd Frank is one of the worst bills passed in American history.
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:06 AM   #6
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Dodd Frank is one of the worst bills passed in American history.
As I have said, there are definite issues I have with it.. but to declare it "one of the worst" is EXTREMELY premature. To have done absolutely NOTHING would be worse in my opinion. That doesn't justify it, that just means we have a lot to wait and see on.
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:03 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by KC native View Post
Yea, this guy can eat a dick.

Investment banking activities need to be separated from regular banking. There is no justifiable reason to backstop those activities.
Are you suggesting we should deny our rulers their riches?
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:12 AM   #8
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Nothing like passing a bill under the guise of getting rid of the "too big to fail" mantra only to allow the big banks to remain to big to fail.
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:14 AM   #9
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Everything Direkshun bolded in the OP has nothing to do with nor does nothing to combat "too big to fail". It has absolutely nothing to do with shareholders and bond holders.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:58 AM   #10
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I've been a lender for 23+ years for community banks. Commercial lines, residential. personal I've done everytype of loan available over that period. My dad was a lender so was my brother.

If you are an entreprenuer wanting to start up a new business you will not get a loan, no way. It's never been more difficult for self employed borrower to get a loan and as of 10/10/12 it will be next to impossible and that is an absolute fact.

I've been with two different community banks since 2008, both well capitalized, didn't make risky loans yet the loan loss provisions and capital ratio requirements as determined by Dodd Frank are killing these small banks. Neither took TARP, neither needed it but it was almost forced on us anyway.

Killing small business and the small banks is what it is doing whether intentional or not. Most of it is senseless regulation (throw the baby out with the bath water, close the barn door after the horses got out type stuff).

Community banks are where the small business person goes to get financing to start up. Due to Dodd Frank we are denying these requests to the point that entreprenuers don't even request financing anymore.

It is obvious that it doesn't bet on small business succeeding, it's betting against it.

Yet CRA requirements are still in place and left untouched.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:01 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOCOChief View Post
I've been a lender for 23+ years for community banks. Commercial lines, residential. personal I've done everytype of loan available over that period. My dad was a lender so was my brother.

If you are an entreprenuer wanting to start up a new business you will not get a loan, no way. It's never been more difficult for self employed borrower to get a loan and as of 10/10/12 it will be next to impossible and that is an absolute fact.

I've been with two different community banks since 2008, both well capitalized, didn't make risky loans yet the loan loss provisions and capital ratio requirements as determined by Dodd Frank are killing these small banks. Neither took TARP, neither needed it but it was almost forced on us anyway.

Killing small business and the small banks is what it is doing whether intentional or not. Most of it is senseless regulation (throw the baby out with the bath water, close the barn door after the horses got out type stuff).

Community banks are where the small business person goes to get financing to start up. Due to Dodd Frank we are denying these requests to the point that entreprenuers don't even request financing anymore.

It is obvious that it doesn't bet on small business succeeding, it's betting against it.

Yet CRA requirements are still in place and left untouched.
So, how do we keep the necessary regulations while getting rid of the senseless ones? Is it that the small banks/businesses' voice is getting drowned out by big banks/businesses in Washington?
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:06 AM   #12
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Are you suggesting we should deny our rulers their riches?
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:08 AM   #13
Ace Gunner Ace Gunner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOCOChief View Post
I've been a lender for 23+ years for community banks. Commercial lines, residential. personal I've done everytype of loan available over that period. My dad was a lender so was my brother.

If you are an entreprenuer wanting to start up a new business you will not get a loan, no way. It's never been more difficult for self employed borrower to get a loan and as of 10/10/12 it will be next to impossible and that is an absolute fact.

I've been with two different community banks since 2008, both well capitalized, didn't make risky loans yet the loan loss provisions and capital ratio requirements as determined by Dodd Frank are killing these small banks. Neither took TARP, neither needed it but it was almost forced on us anyway.

Killing small business and the small banks is what it is doing whether intentional or not. Most of it is senseless regulation (throw the baby out with the bath water, close the barn door after the horses got out type stuff).

Community banks are where the small business person goes to get financing to start up. Due to Dodd Frank we are denying these requests to the point that entreprenuers don't even request financing anymore.

It is obvious that it doesn't bet on small business succeeding, it's betting against it.

Yet CRA requirements are still in place and left untouched.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:24 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Literature View Post
So, how do we keep the necessary regulations while getting rid of the senseless ones? Is it that the small banks/businesses' voice is getting drowned out by big banks/businesses in Washington?
Base the amount of oversite and restricions on performance and don't punish those who weren't part of the problem I guess. Why the hell were the two banks that I referenced above that were capitalized nearly 3 times what the federal govt required treated like Bank of America?

All I know is it bets against small business having the ability to perfom on obligations going forward.

Most of what this does is push paper, increases senseless documentaion 10 fold that doesn't lend to securitization in anyway shape or form.

Don't get me wrong I underwrite risk and know that regulation was and is needed but this is anti business, anti capitalism. You do know that the GSE's were the ones that laxed the standards and documentaion requirements that serve as a "game plan" or terms of "salability" for all lenders?

Barney Frank is the one that defended these laxed standards and when an audit was suggested of Fannie / Freddie he chastised the idea as attempt to erode the consumers confidence of the GSE’s.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
As I have said, there are definite issues I have with it.. but to declare it "one of the worst" is EXTREMELY premature. To have done absolutely NOTHING would be worse in my opinion. That doesn't justify it, that just means we have a lot to wait and see on.
Yeah that's not going to work. This bag of shit is less than 40% implemented at the moment, slow death.
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