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Old 09-17-2012, 04:06 PM  
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
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Romney: 47% of Americans are victims

I guess this maybe the kill shot for his campaign. I know some of you believe you this and won't find a problem with what he said but as a person running for POTUS you probably shouldn't write off 1/2 the country especially in a disparaging way.

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A hidden camera video of Mitt Romney at a fundraiser shows him talking disparagingly of people who will vote for President Obama.

Said Romney: "There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what...These are people who pay no income tax."

He adds: "My job is is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:07 AM   #286
Comrade Crapski Comrade Crapski is offline
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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud View Post
I think that greed is why the housing market crashed. Greed from brokers, from banks, from bank officers, etc. Regulations were eased and instead of helping out those folks that could have benefited, greedy people saw loopholes and began giving people that make $12 dollars an hour a loan on a $300,000k home, all the while, insuring that loan with AIG or a similar company.

While I believe the intention to help Americans attain home ownership, it was circumvented by greedy people. Capitalism isn't benign. And it ****ed us all.
Something about "good intentions pave a road to hell"....

Bottom line, the greedheads could not do what they did without the stage being set by politicians. That's why I blame the federal government first and foremost.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:10 AM   #287
DaneMcCloud DaneMcCloud is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom.Jay61 View Post
Something about "good intentions pave a road to hell"....

Bottom line, the greedheads could not do what they did without the stage being set by politicians. That's why I blame the federal government first and foremost.
I understand that POV and my Dad shares it as well. I should know better, but I expect more from humanity.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:11 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud View Post
But if the 1%'s interests are greater than the 99%, we have a problem.

And personally, I think we have a problem.
See, that's where we differ. I don't see it like that, where the R party is catering exclusively to 1% of the population--- and if they are, how is that adversely affecting everybody else?

I think the federal government takes plenty of revenue to adequately and efficiently run the country, the problem is their is no accountability and there is far too much waste, fraud and abuse.

There are numerous examples of audits done of federal agencies where billions of dollars cannot be accounted for.

hey, let's clean this mess up first, before demanding more tax revenue from any citizen, regardless of their income.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:16 AM   #289
DaneMcCloud DaneMcCloud is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom.Jay61 View Post
See, that's where we differ. I don't see it like that, where the R party is catering exclusively to 1% of the population--- and if they are, how is that adversely affecting everybody else?
It's negatively affecting everyone else because their mission statement isn't to help Americans, it's to earn money for themselves and their shareholders. Corporations haven't been moving manufacturing and customer support jobs overseas in order to make America stronger. They're doing it to earn more and more money.

I'm all for earning as much as you can but when it becomes detrimental to America, where should those practices end?

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Originally Posted by Tom.Jay61 View Post
I think the federal government takes plenty of revenue to adequately and efficiently run the country, the problem is their is no accountability and there is far too much waste, fraud and abuse.
I absolutely and unequivocally agree. The problem, as I see it, isn't relegated to one party or the other but the political system itself. The Republican Party showed absolutely no fiscal restraint under George Bush and raised the debt ceiling seven times in order to fund his wars and pay the bills.

This goes back to my initial question: Can you assure me that this issue will be addressed (I don't think it will ever be "fixed) if Romney is elected POTUS?

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Originally Posted by Tom.Jay61 View Post
There are numerous examples of audits done of federal agencies where billions of dollars cannot be accounted for.

hey, let's clean this mess up first, before demanding more tax revenue from any citizen, regardless of their income.
Again, I agree. But unfortunately, I don't think it's realistic, especially when we have so many dollars committed to just running the damn thing.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:19 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud View Post
Please explain to me, if you can, why I should vote for Romney/Ryan strictly on fiscal issues. And no cheating: The answer can't be "Because they're better than Obama!".

Thanks in advance. Sincerely.
Look, SSI and Medicare/Medicaid have bankrupted the nation. The unfunded liabilities are in excess of twenty trillion dollars.

You can confiscate all the wealth in the US, tax everybody 100% of their income, and you can maybe have enough revenue to pay for SSI and Medicare/Medicaid for a year or two.

This is inevitable: We are going to have a meltdown, and short of a miracle, there is no policy the federal government can enact at this point to change that.

My view is this: We know this bird is crashing. It's just a question now of who we want as the pilot. Do we want a Kamikazi pilot, or do we want a Chesley Sullenberger?
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:25 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Tom.Jay61 View Post
Look, SSI and Medicare/Medicaid have bankrupted the nation. The unfunded liabilities are in excess of twenty trillion dollars.
I understand this. But what do you tell those people that paid into the system for 40 years? I had a heated debate with my Dad during their visit last week and he is absolutely furious that after paying in hundreds of thousands of dollars, there's a chance he won't see it.

It's a mess. And it's such a mess, most politicians won't even directly address it because the answer comes with pain. It'll be interesting to see if any of the moderators ask the candidates what they'll do with this mess moving forward.

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Originally Posted by Tom.Jay61 View Post
My view is this: We know this bird is crashing. It's just a question now of who we want as the pilot. Do we want a Kamikazi pilot, or do we want a Chesley Sullenberger?
I understand this as well and agree. I'm just not convinced that Romney will do anything different than his predecessors and I can't take that risk because I disagree so greatly with his social views.

It sucks. If there was a fiscally conservative but socially accepting candidate (I dislike the word "Liberal) that had a chance to win, he or she would have my vote every day and twice on Sunday. Unfortunately, we don't.

Thanks for the conversation! It's greatly appreciated!
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:25 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud View Post
This goes back to my initial question: Can you assure me that this issue will be addressed (I don't think it will ever be "fixed) if Romney is elected POTUS?
Honestly, I can't.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:26 AM   #293
DaneMcCloud DaneMcCloud is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom.Jay61 View Post
Honestly, I can't.
Thanks, Dude. Seriously.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:26 AM   #294
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So fix the spending. I do find it pathetic that liberals refer to "tax cuts" as spending. Your incompetent leader himself, " all the republicans want to do is spend millions of dollars giving tax cuts to billionairs"(Full disclosure, might not be verbatim but the message is the same) the federal government is not entitled to tax dollars, receiving less tax dollars is not considered spending. That is the problem and one of many reasons that I and many other conservatives despise liberals.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:42 AM   #295
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Some amusing gems from Andrew Sullivan readers:

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Here's what strikes me: For the first time in years, Romney sounds like he actually means what he is saying. The traits that we're used to seeing and hearing - the plastered-on smile, the patently insincere "gee whiz" persona, the illogical disconnects, that creepy nervous laugh - they're all gone. Instead he's clear, and tough, and emphatic, laying it out like the tough businessman he claims to be. Maybe for once we're seeing the real Romney. And it's a Romney who drips with contempt for the people he would serve.
Quote:
Romney acts as if anyone who payed taxes is on his side. As an Obama supporter who happily pays taxes as part of my civic duty, I don't appreciate being portrayed as a societal leech. Of course this is all comes from a man who pays a lower tax rate than a large chunk of middle-class Americans.
Quote:
Romney rails against the 47 percent of Americans who pay no income taxes while refusing to release his tax returns. Who's to say he's not talking about himself?
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What does the wait staff wandering through the shot when Romney is railing against poor think when he is saying this?
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Leaving aside the sneering condescension Romney shows in that video towards people who would VOTE for Obama, there is an interesting line of questioning he has opened himself up for. He repeats the tired and largely debunked myth that "47% of the population don’t pay taxes", but makes sure to say INCOME taxes. Does he mean gross or net? It’s pretty easy to pay no net taxes if you have a middle-class income, have a mortgage and/or kids. Calling these people "victims" or implying that they are freeloaders is pretty crass. Is he planning on eliminating the mortgage and child credits in order to keep us lesser sorts from becoming vicitims? Is he planning on raising taxes on those who live below the poverty level?

When people really get a load of what he said, this is going to make the flap over Obama’s "clinging to guns and religion" gaffe look like nothing in comparison.
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Here's why his comments are so damning: Every Independent in this country at least knows and cares about somebody who is going to vote for Obama, and they don't want to think of those people as leeches. I have family members who disagree with me politically, but they don't think I'm a bum. Far from it. I'm on the border where I hardly pay any net federal income tax, but I have a great job that pays pretty well, and I pay state income tax and payroll tax and gas tax and property tax and social security and medicare. Thus, the people in my life who are on the fence definitely don't want me put in the same category as the people they think of as 'leeches'. Everybody knows somebody in that 47%, and it's much harder to scapegoat somebody that you actually know. Independents will resent Romney for creating that awkwardness for them.
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That Romney quote about people in the 47 percent not taking responsibility for their lives made me so angry I almost cried. I'm in that 47 percent. My household hasn't paid income taxes in ten years - not since my husband became seriously disabled and could no longer work. How dare Romney tell me I'm not taking responsibility. I've been nothing but responsible - responsible for raising three children and caring for my husband for five years until he died, through some very tough times. I worked part-time through much of this, but SSDI and private disability insurance made it possible for my family to survive financially. My two sons received federal loans for college. One is now a public school teacher, and a darn good one - a worthwhile investment, I'd say. The other is still in college. My third child is disabled and continues to receive SSDI, and I'm still responsible for her. I work full-time, pay payroll taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes. But I work for a not-for-profit and don't receive the kind of salary people of my abilities earn in investment banking.

The stuff that happened to me - a spouse who died prematurely, a child with a genetically-based disability - these things can happen to anyone. Anyone.
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This amazing video of Lenore Romney, Mitt's mother, talking of her husband's BRIEF dependance on Government assistance underlines the hypocrisy of their son's views at that fundraiser. Mitt's dissing of the 47% is a direct contradiction of his own mother's accounting of being part of the 47%.

By the way, I was on food stamps and other government assistance myself for a period just over a year. And I went from there to a six figure income. Government assistance is fluid for most people, who need it only for brief periods of time.
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At another fundraiser, Mitt casually mentions that his father's family was cared for by the government when they returned to the U.S. from Mexico. Mitt's moocher family?"
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If Obama is really, really smart, tomorrow he's going to be almost speechless about what Romney has said. He's not going to pounce; he's not going to express campaign-grade indignation; he's not going to try to score points. Rather, he'll take a moment to explain what everybody else is explaining: that a lot of the people who don't pay income taxes are the sick, the poor and the elderly, who we should all be concerned about.

You'll know tomorrow just how meep-meep Obama is. If he plays this correctly he hangs this around Romney's neck in a way that he will never be able to resolve before the first debate. If he treats it like just another campaign moment, that's how voters will see it.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:46 AM   #296
suzzer99 suzzer99 is offline
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If you pay no income tax and only count employer + employee parts of payroll tax then you pay a higher rate than Mitt Romney.

Just sayin'
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:49 AM   #297
suzzer99 suzzer99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowanian View Post
He didn't say anything that isn't true.


about half of the country does feel entitled to a free, comfortable ride.
****ing senior citizens, working poor and the military. Freeloaders all - right?

Note - you are a brainwashed conservative, therefore you will completely forget this point and keep railing about the 47% in 3...2...1...

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Old 09-18-2012, 12:55 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud View Post
I actually think that Obama is to the right of Clinton.

I guess perception is everything.
Obama is to the right of Eisenhower. Seriously.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:07 AM   #299
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If Obama is really, really smart, tomorrow he's going to be almost speechless about what Romney has said. He's not going to pounce; he's not going to express campaign-grade indignation; he's not going to try to score points.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:08 AM   #300
DaneMcCloud DaneMcCloud is offline
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Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Greatest book ever written and a must read for anyone that can read.
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