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Old 09-18-2012, 06:48 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Raise your hand if you're surprised: Romney trashes the two-state solution in Israel.

And the melding of the Likud and the GOP is now complete.

We have ourselves now a transnational political party. Any light that existed between these two organizations is now gone.

The GOP, at least its foreign policy wing, is officially led by Benjamin Netanyahu. If it hadn't been already for years, which I suspect it has.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...dle-east-peace

SECRET VIDEO: On Israel, Romney Trashes Two-State Solution
At a private fundraiser, the GOP candidate calls Middle East peace "almost unthinkable" and says he would "kick the ball down the field."
—By David Corn
Tue Sep. 18, 2012 3:00 AM PDT

At the private fundraiser held May 17 where Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney candidly spoke about political strategy—noting that he saw half of the American electorate as freeloaders and "victims" who do not believe in personal responsibility—he discussed various foreign policy positions, sharing views that he does not express in public, including his belief that peace in the Middle East is not possible and a Palestinian state is not feasible.

Mother Jones has obtained video of Romney at this intimate dinner and has confirmed its authenticity. The event was held at the home of controversial private equity manager Marc Leder in Boca Raton, Florida, with tickets costing $50,000 a plate. During the freewheeling conversation, a donor asked Romney how the "Palestinian problem" can be solved. Romney immediately launched into a detailed reply, asserting that the Palestinians have "no interest whatsoever in establishing peace, and that the pathway to peace is almost unthinkable to accomplish."

Romney spoke of "the Palestinians" as a united bloc of one mindset, and he said: "I look at the Palestinians not wanting to see peace anyway, for political purposes, committed to the destruction and elimination of Israel, and these thorny issues, and I say there's just no way."

Romney was indicating he did not believe in the peace process and, as president, would aim to postpone significant action: "[S]o what you do is, you say, you move things along the best way you can. You hope for some degree of stability, but you recognize that this is going to remain an unsolved problem…and we kick the ball down the field and hope that ultimately, somehow, something will happen and resolve it."

Romney did note there was another perspective on this knotty matter. He informed his donors that a former secretary of state—he would not say who—had told him there was "a prospect for a settlement between the Palestinians and the Israelis." Romney recalled that he had replied, "Really?" Then he added that he had not asked this ex-secretary of state for further explanation.

Here's Romney's full response; he starts out saying he has "two perspectives," but as he answers the question, it turns out that's not really the case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ukhFBJgrZxM

Quote:
I'm torn by two perspectives in this regard. One is the one which I've had for some time, which is that the Palestinians have no interest whatsoever in establishing peace, and that the pathway to peace is almost unthinkable to accomplish. Now why do I say that? Some might say, well, let's let the Palestinians have the West Bank, and have security, and set up a separate nation for the Palestinians. And then come a couple of thorny questions. And I don't have a map here to look at the geography, but the border between Israel and the West Bank is obviously right there, right next to Tel Aviv, which is the financial capital, the industrial capital of Israel, the center of Israel. It's—what the border would be? Maybe seven miles from Tel Aviv to what would be the West Bank…The other side of the West Bank, the other side of what would be this new Palestinian state would either be Syria at one point, or Jordan. And of course the Iranians would want to do through the West Bank exactly what they did through Lebanon, what they did near Gaza. Which is that the Iranians would want to bring missiles and armament into the West Bank and potentially threaten Israel. So Israel of course would have to say, "That can't happen. We've got to keep the Iranians from bringing weaponry into the West Bank." Well, that means that—who? The Israelis are going to patrol the border between Jordan, Syria, and this new Palestinian nation? Well, the Palestinians would say, "Uh, no way! We're an independent country. You can't, you know, guard our border with other Arab nations." And now how about the airport? How about flying into this Palestinian nation? Are we gonna allow military aircraft to come in and weaponry to come in? And if not, who's going to keep it from coming in? Well, the Israelis. Well, the Palestinians are gonna say, "We're not an independent nation if Israel is able to come in and tell us what can land in our airport." These are problems—these are very hard to solve, all right? And I look at the Palestinians not wanting to see peace anyway, for political purposes, committed to the destruction and elimination of Israel, and these thorny issues, and I say, "There's just no way." And so what you do is you say, "You move things along the best way you can." You hope for some degree of stability, but you recognize that this is going to remain an unsolved problem. We live with that in China and Taiwan. All right, we have a potentially volatile situation but we sort of live with it, and we kick the ball down the field and hope that ultimately, somehow, something will happen and resolve it. We don't go to war to try and resolve it imminently. On the other hand, I got a call from a former secretary of state. I won't mention which one it was, but this individual said to me, you know, I think there's a prospect for a settlement between the Palestinians and the Israelis after the Palestinian elections. I said, "Really?" And, you know, his answer was, "Yes, I think there's some prospect." And I didn't delve into it.
After saying all that, Romney emphasized that he was against applying any pressure on Israel: "The idea of pushing on the Israelis to give something up to get the Palestinians to act is the worst idea in the world."

On his campaign website, Romney, whose foreign policy advisers include several neocons known for their hawkish support for Israel, does not explicitly endorse the peace process or a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But the Republican Party platform does state unequivocal backing for this outcome: "We envision two democratic states—Israel with Jerusalem as its capital and Palestine—living in peace and security." The platform adds, "The US seeks a comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East, negotiated between the parties themselves with the assistance of the US."

In public, Romney has not declared the peace process pointless or dismissed the two-state solution. In July, when the Israeli newspaper Haaretz asked Romney if he supports a two-state solution and the creation of a Palestinian state, he replied, "I believe in a two-state solution which suggests there will be two states, including a Jewish state." Yet Romney’s remarks to these funders—this was one of his longest answers at the fundraiser—suggest he might be hiding his true beliefs regarding Israel and the peace process and that on this subject he is out of sync with the predominant view in foreign policy circles that has existed for decades.

Throughout the hourlong fundraiser, Romney discussed other foreign policy matters with his patrons, especially Iran. He repeated the tough talk he has issued on the campaign trail, but he also provided an odd reason for drawing a red line with Tehran about its nuclear program:

Quote:
If I were Iran, if I were Iran—a crazed fanatic, I'd say let's get a little fissile material to Hezbollah, have them carry it to Chicago or some other place, and then if anything goes wrong, or America starts acting up, we'll just say, "Guess what? Unless you stand down, why, we're going to let off a dirty bomb." I mean this is where we have—where America could be held up and blackmailed by Iran, by the mullahs, by crazy people. So we really don't have any option but to keep Iran from having a nuclear weapon.
Romney didn't appear to understand that a dirty bomb—an explosive device that spreads radioactive substances—does not require fissile material from a nuclear weapons program. Such a bomb can be produced with, say, radioactive medical waste. If Iran's nuclear program poses a threat, it is not because this project will yield a dirty bomb.

Talking to these funders, Romney also demonstrated that his campaign-long efforts to criticize Obama's handling of foreign policy in simplistic and exaggerated terms—he's an appeaser, he's an apologist—are not reserved for public consumption. Romney told these well-to-do backers that the president is a naïf with an oversized ego:

Quote:
The president's foreign policy, in my opinion, is formed in part by a perception he has that his magnetism, and his charm, and his persuasiveness is so compelling that he can sit down with people like Putin and Chávez and Ahmadinejad, and that they'll find that we're such wonderful people that they'll go on with us, and they'll stop doing bad things. And it's an extraordinarily naive perception.
Romney did share a disappointment with his patrons, noting it was "frustrating" to him that on a "typical day" when he does several fundraising events, "the number of foreign policy questions I get are between zero and one." He complained that "the American people are not concentrated at all on China, on Russia, Iran, Iraq." But at this fundraiser, Romney received several queries related to national security—and was afforded the opportunity to tell his financial backers what he does not (and will not) tell the public.
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:59 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
No, not at all. What matters is what you do when you get together, not just the fact that you made the trip.

Let's not forget that Barack Obama got a Peace Prize simply because he wasn't named Bush.
What do you think Israel has done so much better to promote peace than Palestinians? What more do you think Palestinians need to do in order to "demonstrate a willingness to peace?"
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:00 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Literature View Post
What do you think Israel has done so much better to promote peace than Palestinians? What more do you think Palestinians need to do in order to "demonstrate a willingness to peace?"
Well, they don't target women and children for suicide bombings like Hamas has, for starters.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:02 PM   #228
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Well, to suggest that "Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to exist" is fairly well wrong.

Polls indicate that 75-85% of Palestinians do not agree with Israel's right to exist.

Furthermore, the Palestinian people (and I do acknowledge there are other reasons for this) seem to vote Hamas into power when given the chance.

A people who vote this sort of group into power are not seeking peace...Hamas makes Likud look like peace loving hippies.
Please note that I said "Palestinians acknowledge the right of Israeli people to exist." It's the state of Israel that is the issue for Palestinians. I think Israel as a state has a right to exist (I think a Palestinian state does, too), but I can understand where some would say that state of Israel should not exist if there isn't a mutual expression of the Palestinian state to exist. What I cannot accept is refusing to recognize a right to Israeli people to exist; but that, I don't think, is the issue.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:02 PM   #229
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The last free election in Palestine, Hamas won 76-43.

That is the like the KKK winning a 2-1 majority in the congress, and having 63 out of 100 in the senate.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:03 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
Well, they don't target women and children for suicide bombings like Hamas has, for starters.
It helps having a modern, powerful military, but yes, that is true.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:03 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Literature View Post
Please note that I said "Palestinians acknowledge the right of Israeli people to exist." It's the state of Israel that is the issue for Palestinians.
Correct me If I am wrong, but if there is no state of Israel, there can be no "Israeli People"
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:05 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Correct me If I am wrong, but if there is no state of Israel, there can be no "Israelis"
Yes, I think that's technically true. But I'm referring to the citizens that are Jewish that live in Israel. The issue is not that those people don't have a right to exist.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:06 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Literature View Post
What do you think Israel has done so much better to promote peace than Palestinians? What more do you think Palestinians need to do in order to "demonstrate a willingness to peace?"
Israel agreed to give up most of the so-called occupied territories in return for peace. Arafat gave them Intifada 2 in return.

After Arafat's death, Israel gave the autonomous government of the PA aid and support so that they could police their own territory. The palestinian people responded by kicking the PA out of power in favor of Hamas and Israel was forced to suspend their coordination.

Israel unilaterally gave up Gaza and the Gaza settlements and in return, the palestinians launched barrage after barrage of rockets at targets in Israel-proper.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:07 PM   #234
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Yes, I think that's technically true. But I'm referring to the citizens that are Jewish that live in Israel.
If the state of Israel doesn't exist, there are no 'jewish citizens living in Israel'

Are you really this dumb?
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:10 PM   #235
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Yes, I think that's technically true. But I'm referring to the citizens that are Jewish that live in Israel. The issue is not that those people don't have a right to exist.
It is for Hamas. It is for the leader of Iran and other Muslim countries that spew hate speech about the lack of proof for the holocaust and how Jews should be wiped out.

I know, your reply is going to be that those folks are just the crazy fringe, etc.....but if your neighbor was saying he was going to wipe your family off of the face of the earth...even if you thought he was crazy, you would still take caution, would you not?

This is why the acknowledgment of the state of Israel must come from the Palestinian side before any real peace can be achieved. Such a declaration is the first step in renouncing the ideals of the radical Muslim and is a first, necessary step for peace.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:16 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
If the state of Israel doesn't exist, there are no 'jewish citizens living in Israel'

Are you really this dumb?
There are Jewish citizens living in Israel now, though. Even without the state of Israel, those people will still exist. Nobody (important, anyway) is arguing that those people don't have a right to exist. That's a lot different than saying "Israel doesn't have a right to exist." Do you agree?
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:18 PM   #237
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This is why the acknowledgment of the state of Israel must come from the Palestinian side before any real peace can be achieved. Such a declaration is the first step in renouncing the ideals of the radical Muslim and is a first, necessary step for peace.
This absolutely. The sad thing is that there is/was a party (Fatah) who had this on their platform.

Hamas beat them by 2-1 in the last free election.

The PEOPLE in Palestine do not accept Israel....the real question is WHY?

I think people can see many of the answers......Hamas hands out money, food, etc...(all money coming from Iran, to prop up Hamas as a power....to destabalize the region).......

And,

Sadly the religion of Islam itself is not exactly a peaceful one...and the laws of Islam (Sharia) do not exactly bode well for non muslims.
I am pretty pessimistic, but if there were a vote today, I think Hamas would still win 2-1.

The real question is WHY and how to change this fact..Or even if we SHOULD change this fact....

I mean, I personally detest meddling in other people's politics....but the problem is that the politics of Hamas is bent on the conversion, destruction, subjugation, and degradation of everyone who isn't a Muslim.

To me thats the point where I go "ok, **** them....gloves are off."

You can only give so many chances to people (free elections)...then what? What are people supposed to do?
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:18 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
It is for Hamas. It is for the leader of Iran and other Muslim countries that spew hate speech about the lack of proof for the holocaust and how Jews should be wiped out.

I know, your reply is going to be that those folks are just the crazy fringe, etc.....but if your neighbor was saying he was going to wipe your family off of the face of the earth...even if you thought he was crazy, you would still take caution, would you not?

This is why the acknowledgment of the state of Israel must come from the Palestinian side before any real peace can be achieved. Such a declaration is the first step in renouncing the ideals of the radical Muslim and is a first, necessary step for peace.
Will you acknowledge that you are asking for the Palestinian people to do something that Israel will only do conditionally?
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:21 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Literature View Post
There are Jewish citizens living in Israel now, though. Even without the state of Israel, those people will still exist. Nobody (important, anyway) is arguing that those people don't have a right to exist. That's a lot different than saying "Israel doesn't have a right to exist." Do you agree?
No. I disagree 100%. Take away the STATE of Israel and what happens to the Jews? You tell me...do you think Hamas would treat them well? Allow them to have Synagogs? All you have to do is look at the LAWS in Islamic countries and look at the reality. If there was no state of Israel, they would probably be wiped out, chased off...etc...

Be realistic...You tell me what happens to Jewish people in a state run by Hamas.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:24 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Literature View Post
Will you acknowledge that you are asking for the Palestinian people to do something that Israel will only do conditionally?
In the end both sides would have conditions.

If the 2-state solution happens, both sides will have to sign some kind of treaty...and there will be conditions on both sides.

edit:

I think Israel is justified in asking the Palestinians to say 'we acknowledge your right to exist' because only their parties (Hamas etc...) have platforms bent on the destruction of Israel.

I am not aware of any serious Israeli political movement with any kind of power who has as a public platform the complete eradication of Palestinians.
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