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Old 09-18-2012, 06:48 AM  
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Raise your hand if you're surprised: Romney trashes the two-state solution in Israel.

And the melding of the Likud and the GOP is now complete.

We have ourselves now a transnational political party. Any light that existed between these two organizations is now gone.

The GOP, at least its foreign policy wing, is officially led by Benjamin Netanyahu. If it hadn't been already for years, which I suspect it has.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...dle-east-peace

SECRET VIDEO: On Israel, Romney Trashes Two-State Solution
At a private fundraiser, the GOP candidate calls Middle East peace "almost unthinkable" and says he would "kick the ball down the field."
—By David Corn
Tue Sep. 18, 2012 3:00 AM PDT

At the private fundraiser held May 17 where Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney candidly spoke about political strategy—noting that he saw half of the American electorate as freeloaders and "victims" who do not believe in personal responsibility—he discussed various foreign policy positions, sharing views that he does not express in public, including his belief that peace in the Middle East is not possible and a Palestinian state is not feasible.

Mother Jones has obtained video of Romney at this intimate dinner and has confirmed its authenticity. The event was held at the home of controversial private equity manager Marc Leder in Boca Raton, Florida, with tickets costing $50,000 a plate. During the freewheeling conversation, a donor asked Romney how the "Palestinian problem" can be solved. Romney immediately launched into a detailed reply, asserting that the Palestinians have "no interest whatsoever in establishing peace, and that the pathway to peace is almost unthinkable to accomplish."

Romney spoke of "the Palestinians" as a united bloc of one mindset, and he said: "I look at the Palestinians not wanting to see peace anyway, for political purposes, committed to the destruction and elimination of Israel, and these thorny issues, and I say there's just no way."

Romney was indicating he did not believe in the peace process and, as president, would aim to postpone significant action: "[S]o what you do is, you say, you move things along the best way you can. You hope for some degree of stability, but you recognize that this is going to remain an unsolved problem…and we kick the ball down the field and hope that ultimately, somehow, something will happen and resolve it."

Romney did note there was another perspective on this knotty matter. He informed his donors that a former secretary of state—he would not say who—had told him there was "a prospect for a settlement between the Palestinians and the Israelis." Romney recalled that he had replied, "Really?" Then he added that he had not asked this ex-secretary of state for further explanation.

Here's Romney's full response; he starts out saying he has "two perspectives," but as he answers the question, it turns out that's not really the case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ukhFBJgrZxM

Quote:
I'm torn by two perspectives in this regard. One is the one which I've had for some time, which is that the Palestinians have no interest whatsoever in establishing peace, and that the pathway to peace is almost unthinkable to accomplish. Now why do I say that? Some might say, well, let's let the Palestinians have the West Bank, and have security, and set up a separate nation for the Palestinians. And then come a couple of thorny questions. And I don't have a map here to look at the geography, but the border between Israel and the West Bank is obviously right there, right next to Tel Aviv, which is the financial capital, the industrial capital of Israel, the center of Israel. It's—what the border would be? Maybe seven miles from Tel Aviv to what would be the West Bank…The other side of the West Bank, the other side of what would be this new Palestinian state would either be Syria at one point, or Jordan. And of course the Iranians would want to do through the West Bank exactly what they did through Lebanon, what they did near Gaza. Which is that the Iranians would want to bring missiles and armament into the West Bank and potentially threaten Israel. So Israel of course would have to say, "That can't happen. We've got to keep the Iranians from bringing weaponry into the West Bank." Well, that means that—who? The Israelis are going to patrol the border between Jordan, Syria, and this new Palestinian nation? Well, the Palestinians would say, "Uh, no way! We're an independent country. You can't, you know, guard our border with other Arab nations." And now how about the airport? How about flying into this Palestinian nation? Are we gonna allow military aircraft to come in and weaponry to come in? And if not, who's going to keep it from coming in? Well, the Israelis. Well, the Palestinians are gonna say, "We're not an independent nation if Israel is able to come in and tell us what can land in our airport." These are problems—these are very hard to solve, all right? And I look at the Palestinians not wanting to see peace anyway, for political purposes, committed to the destruction and elimination of Israel, and these thorny issues, and I say, "There's just no way." And so what you do is you say, "You move things along the best way you can." You hope for some degree of stability, but you recognize that this is going to remain an unsolved problem. We live with that in China and Taiwan. All right, we have a potentially volatile situation but we sort of live with it, and we kick the ball down the field and hope that ultimately, somehow, something will happen and resolve it. We don't go to war to try and resolve it imminently. On the other hand, I got a call from a former secretary of state. I won't mention which one it was, but this individual said to me, you know, I think there's a prospect for a settlement between the Palestinians and the Israelis after the Palestinian elections. I said, "Really?" And, you know, his answer was, "Yes, I think there's some prospect." And I didn't delve into it.
After saying all that, Romney emphasized that he was against applying any pressure on Israel: "The idea of pushing on the Israelis to give something up to get the Palestinians to act is the worst idea in the world."

On his campaign website, Romney, whose foreign policy advisers include several neocons known for their hawkish support for Israel, does not explicitly endorse the peace process or a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But the Republican Party platform does state unequivocal backing for this outcome: "We envision two democratic states—Israel with Jerusalem as its capital and Palestine—living in peace and security." The platform adds, "The US seeks a comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East, negotiated between the parties themselves with the assistance of the US."

In public, Romney has not declared the peace process pointless or dismissed the two-state solution. In July, when the Israeli newspaper Haaretz asked Romney if he supports a two-state solution and the creation of a Palestinian state, he replied, "I believe in a two-state solution which suggests there will be two states, including a Jewish state." Yet Romney’s remarks to these funders—this was one of his longest answers at the fundraiser—suggest he might be hiding his true beliefs regarding Israel and the peace process and that on this subject he is out of sync with the predominant view in foreign policy circles that has existed for decades.

Throughout the hourlong fundraiser, Romney discussed other foreign policy matters with his patrons, especially Iran. He repeated the tough talk he has issued on the campaign trail, but he also provided an odd reason for drawing a red line with Tehran about its nuclear program:

Quote:
If I were Iran, if I were Iran—a crazed fanatic, I'd say let's get a little fissile material to Hezbollah, have them carry it to Chicago or some other place, and then if anything goes wrong, or America starts acting up, we'll just say, "Guess what? Unless you stand down, why, we're going to let off a dirty bomb." I mean this is where we have—where America could be held up and blackmailed by Iran, by the mullahs, by crazy people. So we really don't have any option but to keep Iran from having a nuclear weapon.
Romney didn't appear to understand that a dirty bomb—an explosive device that spreads radioactive substances—does not require fissile material from a nuclear weapons program. Such a bomb can be produced with, say, radioactive medical waste. If Iran's nuclear program poses a threat, it is not because this project will yield a dirty bomb.

Talking to these funders, Romney also demonstrated that his campaign-long efforts to criticize Obama's handling of foreign policy in simplistic and exaggerated terms—he's an appeaser, he's an apologist—are not reserved for public consumption. Romney told these well-to-do backers that the president is a naïf with an oversized ego:

Quote:
The president's foreign policy, in my opinion, is formed in part by a perception he has that his magnetism, and his charm, and his persuasiveness is so compelling that he can sit down with people like Putin and Chávez and Ahmadinejad, and that they'll find that we're such wonderful people that they'll go on with us, and they'll stop doing bad things. And it's an extraordinarily naive perception.
Romney did share a disappointment with his patrons, noting it was "frustrating" to him that on a "typical day" when he does several fundraising events, "the number of foreign policy questions I get are between zero and one." He complained that "the American people are not concentrated at all on China, on Russia, Iran, Iraq." But at this fundraiser, Romney received several queries related to national security—and was afforded the opportunity to tell his financial backers what he does not (and will not) tell the public.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:25 PM   #241
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Will you acknowledge that you are asking for the Palestinian people to do something that Israel will only do conditionally?
No. Israel has never advocated wiping out the Palestinians. You can be a Palestinian and a Muslim and live in peace in Israel. Can you be a Jew in Syria? Jordan? Iran or Iraq?

Israel has the high ground on this issue. They have not advocated genocide, are a democratic state, and non-Jewish citizens of Israel have equal rights with that of Jewish citizens.

Given the nature of how Israel has been attacked over the years, Israel has a responsibility to not blindly go to the negotiating table without at least a minimal guarantee that those on the other side will not continue to seek genocide against them.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:26 PM   #242
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No. I disagree 100%. Take away the STATE of Israel and what happens to the Jews? You tell me...do you think Hamas would treat them well? Allow them to have Synagogs? All you have to do is look at the LAWS in Islamic countries and look at the reality. If there was no state of Israel, they would probably be wiped out, chased off...etc...

Be realistic...You tell me what happens to Jewish people in a state run by Hamas.
I don't think the Palestinian people would begin genocide of former Israeli Jews. I don't think Jews would be treated well at all under Hamas, though. I think there would be many executions.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:26 PM   #243
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In the end both sides would have conditions.

If the 2-state solution happens, both sides will have to sign some kind of treaty...and there will be conditions on both sides.
Look at the deal Arafat rejected at the end of Clinton's second term...Israel threw in just about everything but the kitchen sink...but Arafat rejected it because acknowledging Israel's right to exist was just too much to ask...
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:28 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
I am not aware of any serious Israeli political movement with any kind of power who has as a public platform the complete eradication of Palestinians.
There isn't one, as far as I know. However, there is a continued policy of settlement expansion, and it is devastating and preventing peace in the region, as far as I can tell.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:32 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
No. Israel has never advocated wiping out the Palestinians. You can be a Palestinian and a Muslim and live in peace in Israel. Can you be a Jew in Syria? Jordan? Iran or Iraq?

Israel has the high ground on this issue. They have not advocated genocide, are a democratic state, and non-Jewish citizens of Israel have equal rights with that of Jewish citizens.

Given the nature of how Israel has been attacked over the years, Israel has a responsibility to not blindly go to the negotiating table without at least a minimal guarantee that those on the other side will not continue to seek genocide against them.
Do you think Israel should have a standing policy of recognizing a Palestinian right to exist?
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:33 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Literature View Post
I don't think the Palestinian people would begin genocide of former Israeli Jews. I don't think Jews would be treated well at all under Hamas, though. I think there would be many executions.
All you have to do is look at any of the religious the minorities in Islamic countries...and what has happened over the last few decades even...

You can witness it in Egypt, and what is happening right now to the Copts.

I'm not sure how you can deny this basic fact, but to be ANYTHING but Muslim in the vast majority of Islamic countries is extremely dangerous.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:33 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Literature View Post
I don't think the Palestinian people would begin genocide of former Israeli Jews. I don't think Jews would be treated well at all under Hamas, though. I think there would be many executions.
Then you have not listened to the Palestinians and the leaders they have freely elected:

http://www.seraphicpress.com/hamas-a...-all-the-jews/

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/12/ha...-last-one.html

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/hama...new-caliphate/

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=427

And this is just from page 1 on google.

Again, if this was your neighbor talking about your family like this...repeatedly, while trying to blow up your shed and kill your dog, wouldn't you take them seriously, even though you think they might be crazy?
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:35 PM   #248
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Look at the deal Arafat rejected at the end of Clinton's second term...Israel threw in just about everything but the kitchen sink...but Arafat rejected it because acknowledging Israel's right to exist was just too much to ask...
Are you sure? My understanding is that Arafat did recognize Israel's right to existence, starting in the 1980s, without ever going back on that.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:36 PM   #249
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There isn't one, as far as I know. However, there is a continued policy of settlement expansion, and it is devastating and preventing peace in the region, as far as I can tell.
Absolutely. I agree with you on this....MANY Israelis are completely against this...

But

Lets look at it from a right wing Israeli's perspective for a second:

What else do they have to bargain with..? If they stop expanding , what other bargaining chip do they have to bring to the table? I think that is the main reason right wingers pull that crap.....

What if Israel would agree to not expand even one settlement more, if hamas, and the palestinian people would acknowledge Israel's right to exist?
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:36 PM   #250
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All you have to do is look at any of the religious the minorities in Islamic countries...and what has happened over the last few decades even...

You can witness it in Egypt, and what is happening right now to the Copts.

I'm not sure how you can deny this basic fact, but to be ANYTHING but Muslim in the vast majority of Islamic countries is extremely dangerous.
Yes, but there is not genocide going on. Muslims do not hold that people of other faiths have no right to exist.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:37 PM   #251
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Do you think Israel should have a standing policy of recognizing a Palestinian right to exist?
I think they do. I have not read any stories of the state of Israel rounding up their Palestinian citizens and killing them.

Israel has shown time and again at the negotiating table that they are willing to deal. The other side only has to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist....that's it. Why should Israel believe Hamas will keep its word in anything if Hamas cannot even acknowledge Israel's right to exist?
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:37 PM   #252
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Are you sure? My understanding is that Arafat did recognize Israel's right to existence, starting in the 1980s, without ever going back on that.
I believe in his heart, Arafat wanted to...but the majority of Palestnians at that time supported Hamas....so his hands were tied....I mean if 66% are voting to NOT recognize Israel, what can the guy do if he simply couldnt convince his own people?
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:38 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
Then you have not listened to the Palestinians and the leaders they have freely elected:

http://www.seraphicpress.com/hamas-a...-all-the-jews/

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/12/ha...-last-one.html

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/hama...new-caliphate/

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=427

And this is just from page 1 on google.

Again, if this was your neighbor talking about your family like this...repeatedly, while trying to blow up your shed and kill your dog, wouldn't you take them seriously, even though you think they might be crazy?
Yes, I would have police take care of this. I would not take over their house.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:39 PM   #254
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Yes, but there is not genocide going on. Muslims do not hold that people of other faiths have no right to exist.
Well....

AS LONG as they accept that they are second class citizens, or convert to ISlam....

You do realize this right?

A Muslim in an Islamic country has more rights than a non muslim, and non muslims are OFTEN persucuted by vague 'Blasphemy' laws.

Blasphemy is punishable by death.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:40 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
I think they do. I have not read any stories of the state of Israel rounding up their Palestinian citizens and killing them.
But you have heard of the state of Israel taking over Palestinian territory and sending Palestinian's out of their homes, right? It's not genocide, but it's significant.
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