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Old 09-20-2012, 12:11 PM  
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
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The REAL Story of the 47% "Moochers"


If Americans are paying attention, and grasp the reality and not the demagoguery of what Romney said, it could be the final nail in his coffin....

Americans are not moochers

CNN.com
By Teresa Ghilarducci and Rick McGahey
updated 12:54 PM EDT, Thu September 20, 2012

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/20/opinio...rticle_sidebar
CNN.com







Editor's note: Teresa Ghilarducci and Rick McGahey are professors of economics at the Schwartz Center for Economic Policy Analysis and The New School in New York City.

(CNN) -- Americans are not a nation of moochers and helpless dependents. Those who are not paying federal income tax would gladly do so, because it would mean they have a decent-paying job.

GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney is right that 47% of Americans don't pay federal income tax. But he is wrong to suggest almost half of Americans pay no tax at all and feel entitled to live off government handouts.

Romney said: "There are 47% of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47% who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. But that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. ... These are people who pay no income tax."

It's true that some Americans don't pay federal income tax. But virtually all Americans pay some form of tax, whether it's sales, payroll, state income, or property tax.

Over 60% of those who don't pay income tax are working; they pay payroll tax, which goes to support Social Security and Medicare. Another 22% of those who don't pay income tax are the elderly; most of them don't work.

In fact, only about 8% of Americans pay neither federal income tax nor payroll tax, because they are unemployed, are students, or are disabled. What is missing from all this talk about tax is the fact that although the rich pay higher taxes than the poor, middle-class people actually pay a higher percentage of their income in total taxes. True, federal income tax rates are progressive, with rates going to 35% for the top earners. But deductions and special treatment of capital gains reduce actual tax rates for the top earners. So what we end up with is upper-middle-class taxpayers paying the highest actual percentage of their income, over 31%, according to a 2010 study by the group Citizens for Tax Justice.

The payroll tax for Social Security is 12.4% (split between employer and employee). It's highly regressive, because only the first $110,100 of income is taxed. CEOs earning over $35 million per year have paid their entire annual Social Security tax bill before the end of their workday on January 2, while regular workers see this tax deducted from every check throughout the year.

Billionaire Warren Buffett points out that he pays a tax rate of only 17.8%, compared with his secretary's rate of 35.8%. Why? Because payroll taxes are capped and he gets a lower rate on his capital gains.

President Obama pushed to pass the "Buffett Rule" to help reduce this disparity, but Romney's vice-presidential running mate, Rep. Paul Ryan, opposed the rule, calling support for it "class warfare." As the Republicans use the term "class warfare," they also bring forth, pointedly, details on the wide gap in income and wealth distribution in our country.

Digging deeper into why 47% don't pay federal income tax, what we find are many former taxpayers: Twenty-two percent are the elderly, living mostly on Social Security, a benefit they got by working and paying payroll taxes. Others are unemployed or are paid close to the minimum wage, so they don't have enough income to file any taxes.

What about Romney's claim that these people believe they have a right to government assistance? Our research shows that over 50% of older people looking for work (but who are too young to collect Social Security) do not receive unemployment insurance or any other government assistance. They are living close to the poverty line with no help other than family.

Far fewer poor Americans get government assistance for low incomes. For the last 30 years, less than 4% of the U.S. population has received a full year's worth of payments, like food stamps, which are based on level of income.

Romney can choose whom he cares about, but he can't be allowed to choose his own facts and distort reality in service of divisive politics. Focusing exclusively on federal income taxes hides the fact that most Americans pay plenty of other taxes.

Finally, Romney says that the 47% can't be convinced to take "personal responsibility." Tell that to the single mother working the night shift to put her kids through school, or the 78-year-old widow living on Social Security, or the handicapped Iraqi war veteran who relies on government health care for his service to his country. Along with millions of working Americans, they are paragons of personal responsibility, not Romney's caricature of self-pitying victims seeking to live off government benefits.

Last edited by Mr. Kotter; 09-20-2012 at 12:43 PM..
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Yeah, many misguided Americans from our grandparent's generation thought the country was going to hell in a hand-basket in the 60s and 70s too; it didn't. The generation of sex-drugs-and-rock-and-roll grew up and got smarter too--just like always. Change is frightening to some people--but it's the one constant in life. Retreating to butter, guns, and the Bible makes you feel better, but it doesn't solve real world problems.

The right to bear arms is one thing; a veiled assasination threat, another.

Most importantly though, there is a big difference between a prosperous republic that ensures the general welfare of society through a safety net....and that boogie-man of Socialism that the far-right keep trotting out. Too bad so many WANT to believe the lies of the right... listening to the voices of cynical and self-serving sychophants of the plutocracy that has emerged in the last 15 years in this country.

If "Dittoheads" and "true Americans" want to see naive, they need to look in the mirror.
God dude.....really?
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:06 PM   #17
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I honestly don't understand why we have people and politicians that want to blame crooked wall street executives or blame freeloaders as if it's an either/or thing.

Both are part of the problem. Why do people act like one thing is wrong and not the other?
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:06 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by The_Grand_Illusion View Post
This is why what Romney said hits liberals/progressives so hard. It points out their failures of the last 50 or so years. What they call “safety net” has turned in to government dependence, laziness, and unproductively to the point of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for their all-things government mentality. What they believe has failed miserably and their whole culture is in denial about it. If the failure of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for the government to be the end all, doesn't get them to realize their failures, nothing will until they completely destroy this country.

TGI
A gigantic chunk that $16T in debt is due to defense, SS and medicare. The stuff you are talking about like food stamps and welfare is a rounding error on top of the budgets for those thing.

I realize this doesn't matter to you because this is more of an emotional issue than a logical issue for you - and you will just ascribe whatever number you feel to the moocher class debt.
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Yeah, many misguided Americans from our grandparent's generation thought the country was going to hell in a hand-basket in the 60s and 70s too; it didn't. The generation of sex-drugs-and-rock-and-roll grew up and got smarter too--just like always. Change is frightening to some people--but it's the one constant in life. Retreating to butter, guns, and the Bible makes you feel better, but it doesn't solve real world problems.

The right to bear arms is one thing; a veiled assasination threat, another.

Most importantly though, there is a big difference between a prosperous republic that ensures the general welfare of society through a safety net....and that boogie-man of Socialism that the far-right keep trotting out. Too bad so many WANT to believe the lies of the right... listening to the voices of cynical and self-serving sychophants of the plutocracy that has emerged in the last 15 years in this country.

If "Dittoheads" and "true Americans" want to see naive, they need to look in the mirror.
this post is so full of fail, it's pathetic.

but hey, I understand how those pesky first and second amendments get under your skin like they do...take the mask off, kotter.
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:12 PM   #20
suzzer99 suzzer99 is offline
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
I honestly don't understand why we have people and politicians that want to blame crooked wall street executives or blame freeloaders as if it's an either/or thing.

Both are part of the problem. Why do people act like one thing is wrong and not the other?
I completely agree. I do think the crooked wall st. executives are doing a lot more damage to the country right now.

But I don't like what we've been doing expanding food stamps and removing wellfare-to-work requirements - not so much because of the cost, which is minimal in the grand scheme - but because I think getting on public assistance for too long tends to ruin people. I've seen it happen.
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:21 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Grand_Illusion View Post
This is why what Romney said hits liberals/progressives so hard. It points out their failures of the last 50 or so years. What they call “safety net” has turned in to government dependence, laziness, and unproductively to the point of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for their all-things government mentality. What they believe has failed miserably and their whole culture is in denial about it. If the failure of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for the government to be the end all, doesn't get them to realize their failures, nothing will until they completely destroy this country.

TGI
The $16T national debt is due to having a congress that couldn't pass a balanced budget to save its life in the past decade. Instead of fix the problem at its source, they vote to raise the debt ceiling over and over and over again.

There's really no reason we should have this large a deficit other than nobody will step up to the plate and pass a responsible budget. Everybody wants it to be somebody else's problem.
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:28 PM   #22
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Payroll tax people DIRECTLY get back via social security and medicare....

The "Payroll" tax is a pretty dumb argument, intended to sway stupid idiots who ccan't grasp the concept that you get back what you put into payroll tax...and it goes ONLY to very specific items.

Income taxes on the other hand you do not DIRECTLY get back, and are dispersed to others by way of entitlements, services...etc....

Acting like it isn't a big deal that about 50% of the country pays NOTHING or very little into the pot of funds that goes to EVERYTHING else other than social security and medicare is just as dishonest as anything else.

The fact is, we as a society cannot continue to go on with 50% of the population paying zero or very close to zero for income tax....while at the same time using a large percentage of the benefits that income tax pays for.

Personally, I would do away altogether with income taxes...no more unfair system. All we really need is an additional flat tax on consumption that NO ONE can bypass (except basic food items and used/second hand/goodwill items). Corporations: NO you can't bypass this. Rich people: Sorry, if you want to buy all that stuff, you will pay the most consumption. Poor people: If you want an xbox, youll have to pay consumption...if you want basic items like food and milk and thrift clothing, you wont need to pay ANY consumption tax. Middle Class: You want to live like a rich person and have all the nice crap - PAY consumption tax....You want to scrimp and save and buy used items and avoid consumption tax??? GO for it!
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:13 PM   #23
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
this post is so full of fail, it's pathetic.

but hey, I understand how those pesky first and second amendments get under your skin like they do...take the mask off, kotter.
Is there any chance you are willing to elaborate, or you just want to forget it?
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:14 PM   #24
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Everyone knows a boat load of moochers living off the system but they don't really exist because CNN says so. Great post Kotter.
I believe that it's less than 1% that are moochers. The rest are retirees, pay payroll taxes, elderly, military etc.

I'm in favor of getting those "real" moochers off the taxpayer dime. Hand up, not hand out. You get a plan to get off the taxpayer dime asap or else GTFO. And while your being helped by your fellow citzens, give back. Work in a library, landscape in parks, work in an office something.

We should have a time limit that you can recieve aid.

We should have a minimum tax that applies to all Americans.
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:19 PM   #25
The_Grand_Illusion The_Grand_Illusion is offline
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
A gigantic chunk that $16T in debt is due to defense, SS and medicare. The stuff you are talking about like food stamps and welfare is a rounding error on top of the budgets for those thing.

I realize this doesn't matter to you because this is more of an emotional issue than a logical issue for you - and you will just ascribe whatever number you feel to the moocher class debt.
You missed my point entirely. The trillions of dollars of debt is just the product of a failed ideology that has brought big out-of-control government to the table for the last half century or more. It is just not sustainable if we are to remain a free and prosperous country.

TGI
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:13 AM   #26
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Teresa, the co author of this article is one of the elites that Iowa Senator Tom Harkin had come to DC several years ago to try to concock a plan that Harkin wants so the Gov't can take peoples 401k monies and 403B and IRA ac****s and put it under the control of the Federal Gov't. Harkin then wants to outlaw 401ks and other similar plans.

Harkin thinks the GOV'T can do a better job with your money ! Harkin can't wait to access all the funds in peoples retirement accounts.

Harkin can KISS MY lilly white ASS.
Holy shit, i remember that broad.

There was a thread on Teresa, I'm gonna see if I can find it.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:19 AM   #27
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here 'tis

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showt...scation+Teresa

Heh.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:20 AM   #28
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:53 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Grand_Illusion View Post
This is why what Romney said hits liberals/progressives so hard. It points out their failures of the last 50 or so years. What they call “safety net” has turned in to government dependence, laziness, and unproductively to the point of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for their all-things government mentality. What they believe has failed miserably and their whole culture is in denial about it. If the failure of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for the government to be the end all, doesn't get them to realize their failures, nothing will until they completely destroy this country.

TGI
And here is the HUGE disconnect that I get from Republicans. Welfare/Food stamps are a drop in the ****ing bucket of our National Debt compared to the fallout of corporate banker greed that occurred in 2008. QE, stimulus, and bailouts are how we've achieved this debt. And that was ALL due to the deregulation and subsequent greed that ensued in the middle of the last decade.

But by all means, keep banging the drum against the poorest of our society. I know it sucks that you have to go to work every day and they can't/won't. Hope it makes you feel better when inflation drives eggs up to $8 a dozen. It's all their fault.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:00 AM   #30
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And here is the HUGE disconnect that I get from Republicans. Welfare/Food stamps are a drop in the ****ing bucket of our National Debt compared to the fallout of corporate banker greed that occurred in 2008. QE, stimulus, and bailouts are how we've achieved this debt. And that was ALL due to the deregulation and subsequent greed that ensued in the middle of the last decade.

But by all means, keep banging the drum against the poorest of our society. I know it sucks that you have to go to work every day and they can't/won't. Hope it makes you feel better when inflation drives eggs up to $8 a dozen. It's all their fault.
Why limit it to 2008? This shit is still going on.
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