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Old 10-09-2012, 05:58 PM  
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VARSITY
***OFFICIAL VP DEBATE THREAD***

A little early but I was just sitting in the park this afternoon when a small group of runner's came by me and it was Ryan running along the waters edge. They were running a pretty damn good clip. A quick pace for a jog that's for sure.

WTF is he doing his debate prep in St. Pete?

On Saturday night Romney held a big rally about 1/2 mile from my house and right across from where Ryan was running.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:16 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
That said, if I'm Biden (and for all you guys know, I am -- you've never seen me in the same room as him...), I keep singing the praises of the original Ryan budget. Because that thing is a nightmare for a Presidential campaign to sell in the United States.

Even if Ryan backs off parts of it, and says something like "I've since revised the parts on Medicare to not include today's seniors" I'd rebut that he still included it in the original thinking at one point that it was wise policy, and that that is indicative of where his priorities lie, which suggests dire consequences for future policy. (If Ryan attempts to escape by saying his views are not necessarily Romney's views, I'd remind him that god forbid, should something happen to Romney, you're the guy we're stuck with. That's why we have veeps, that's why we're on this stage. Otherwise nobody cares about us.)

Before Romney embraced the Moderate Mitt persona, he endorsed the Ryan budget at one point, and selected the guy to be his goddamn Veep.
And if I'm Ryan (I could be!.. ok no I couldn't, I hate Green Bay) then I EASILY counter that by bringing up any number of policies that Biden has held in the past and since changed. Or I simply bring up his own words he used against Obama in the primaries in 2008.

The "you once said this" argument is easily defeated in a debate .. you can use that for your ads but get called out immediately in person. Just point out that all politicians "evolve" as Obama himself has said regarding numerous changes he has made. (Same sex marriage, gitmo, etc)
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:17 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Will be interesting to see what these two can do.

They are perfectly created to take on each other's weaknesses.

Biden is a values-laden foreign policy expert. Ryan a details-laden economics expert.

Could be a ton of fun.

I agree, but Biden has to support real positions that are easy to stick pins in.

Why raise taxes when the economy is bad, Obama said that would be a bad thing when the economy was doing better. We're not trying something that's been done in the past, we want to work to make the tax system fairer and simpler and make sure that those who don't need deductions aren't able to use them.

Do you really want to put your healthcare in the hands of 15 unelected political appointees? You call them "experts" but I call them government bureaucrats. I don't want a bureaucrat standing between my mother and her doctor. They're not going to care about my well-being, they're going to care about their own well-being.

Foreign policy has deteriorated of the past few weeks as the Obama foreign policy has collapsed. You got Osama bin Laden and that's a good thing, but you seemed to think the war was over when he died and now we have American ambassadors - who were begging for additional security - being told by your state department that they couldn't have them.

According to what the president said last week, your plan for Medicare is to extend its life for eight years. That's your plan. Eight more years. We have a different approach that will ensure that Medicare is there to help all of our elderly this generation and future generations. Your plan, according to the president, is to extend the program eight years and after that you have no plan.

There is no $5 trillion tax cut. The study you cite in your ads was revised to accurately reflect our plan and it said it was revenue neutral. Even your own campaign manager came out earlier today and admitted that there was no $5 trillion tax cut.

Governor Romney was speaking about election strategy and he admitted last week that regardless of what he intended to say it was wrong and he apologized to everyone. Look, we all make mistakes sometimes when we talk. One time the Vice President gave a speech that we found out later was plagerized, but he owned up to it and apologized, just like Governor Romney did.

Romney/Ryan have the luxury of talking in generalities, but he better have some clear and concise facts when he's asked for those specifics because you know it's coming...

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Old 10-11-2012, 06:19 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
And if I'm Ryan (I could be!.. ok no I couldn't, I hate Green Bay) then I EASILY counter that by bringing up any number of policies that Biden has held in the past and since changed. Or I simply bring up his own words he used against Obama in the primaries in 2008.

The "you once said this" argument is easily defeated in a debate .. you can use that for your ads but get called out immediately in person. Just point out that all politicians "evolve" as Obama himself has said regarding numerous changes he has made. (Same sex marriage, gitmo, etc)
Don't care. I just keep singing the praises of the Ryan budget.

This was a severely conservative, meticulously constructed, ideologically rigid blueprint that was endorsed by Romney.

If you want to take an ax to the social safety net, have at it. But you're not winning shit in a Presidential election.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:19 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
If I'm Biden, I'd argue the following accomplishments: we withdrew out of Iraq. We're withdrawing out of Afghanistan. We killed OBL on a ballsy mission that delivered on a key Obama 2008 platform -- the guy puts his money where his mouth is. We neutered Qaddafi without putting our boots on the ground, we applied backroom pressure to Mubarak, and we've economically crippled Iran. We've chased terrorists everywhere in the Middle East, essentially wiping out AQ in Afghanistan.
The only one of those that isn't going to bite you in the ass in a debate is Iran. That'd be the only one I would lean on if I was Biden. The rest all have substantial events that have been in the news recently that make the Administrations policies look like failures. Again, this isn't about reality, just what is on peoples minds regarding perception.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:23 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by RINGLEADER View Post
I agree, but Biden has to support real positions that are easy to stick pins in.

Why raise taxes when the economy is bad, Obama said that would be a bad thing when the economy was doing better.

Do you really want to put your healthcare in the hands of 15 unelected political appointees? You call them "experts" but I call the government bureaucrats.

Foreign policy has deteriorated of the past few weeks as the Obama foreign policy has collapsed. You got Osama bin Laden and that's a good thing, but you seemed to think the war was over when he died and now we have American ambassadors - who were begging for additional security - being told by your state department that they couldn't have them.

According to what the president said last week, your plan for Medicare is to extend its life for eight years. That's your plan. Eight more years. We have a different approach.

There is no $5 trillion tax cut. The study you cite in your ads was revised to accurately reflect our plan and it said it was revenue neutral. Even your own campaign manager came out earlier today and admitted that there was no $5 trillion tax cut.

Governor Romney was speaking about election strategy and he admitted last week that regardless of what he intended to say it was wrong and he apologized to everyone. Look, we all make mistakes sometimes when we talk. One time the Vice President gave a speech that we found out later was plagerized, but he owned up to it and apologized, just like Governor Romney did.

Romney/Ryan have the luxury of talking in generalities, but he better have some clear and concise facts when he's asked for those specifics because you know it's coming...
Not a bad listing of talking points.

Each can be rebutted, and done so effectively, but your central point is correct -- it's a ton more difficult to defend a record than defend a mere platform.

My rule of thumb for this debate would be, the more you can talk about Ryan's budget, the better for Biden.

I simply don't think it's a winner, and I earnestly believe you folks agree with me on that.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:24 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Don't care. I just keep singing the praises of the Ryan budget.

This was a severely conservative, meticulously constructed, ideologically rigid blueprint that was endorsed by Romney.

If you want to take an ax to the social safety net, have at it. But you're not winning shit in a Presidential election.
Only problem is that it isn't Romney's plan and it's way too easy to blow holes in the Obama record.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:24 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Don't care. I just keep singing the praises of the Ryan budget.

This was a severely conservative, meticulously constructed, ideologically rigid blueprint that was endorsed by Romney.
If Ryan is as good a debater/presenter as he should be(and I suspect he is) that would be a massive loss for Biden. He'd make him look like a silly old man dwelling on something that no longer applies. Ryan just needs to frame his response as if Biden is making another famous gaffe and make the point I stated earlier then reframe Biden again as making a gaffe. Viewing public would eat that up.

People aren't dumb enough to buy what Biden sells wholesale and they aren't smart enough to understand the nuance that you are trying to get across that it represents Ryan and Romney's core beliefs if they once were ok with a budget like that.

My $.02.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:24 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
The only one of those that isn't going to bite you in the ass in a debate is Iran. That'd be the only one I would lean on if I was Biden. The rest all have substantial events that have been in the news recently that make the Administrations policies look like failures. Again, this isn't about reality, just what is on peoples minds regarding perception.
Absolutely.

And like I said, each one of those positions is a "least shitty" option. Each decision has had fallout because right now, all of America's options are shitty in the Middle East.

Edit: I would not advise Biden to use the phrase "shitty." Heh.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:26 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by RINGLEADER View Post
Only problem is that it isn't Romney's plan and it's way too easy to blow holes in the Obama record.
1. Ryan's plan was endorsed by Romney.

2. Ryan's the freakin' veep. God forbid anything happening to Romney, but if anything did, we're stuck with Ryan.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:28 PM   #40
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If Ryan is as good a debater/presenter as he should be(and I suspect he is) that would be a massive loss for Biden. He'd make him look like a silly old man dwelling on something that no longer applies. Ryan just needs to frame his response as if Biden is making another famous gaffe and make the point I stated earlier then reframe Biden again as making a gaffe. Viewing public would eat that up.

People aren't dumb enough to buy what Biden sells wholesale and they aren't smart enough to understand the nuance that you are trying to get across that it represents Ryan and Romney's core beliefs if they once were ok with a budget like that.

My $.02.
All reports are that Ryan is a good debater. I would expect him to perform well tonight, I'm actually excited to see him in action because we don't get a lot of dudes like him at the bottom of tickets. Usually it's just some "let's excite the base" 'tard.

I just don't see how he can wiggle away from his budget. It's an incredibly well constructed, severely conservative document that vaulted his standing in the GOP. He didn't get to where he is by being good looking -- though he has that going for him as well.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:29 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Absolutely.

And like I said, each one of those positions is a "least shitty" option. Each decision has had fallout because right now, all of America's options are shitty in the Middle East.

Edit: I would not advise Biden to use the phrase "shitty." Heh.
BTW. that is by far Biden's best bet on foreign policy. Americans are tired of the Middle East and see it as hopeless. Biden should paint himself as an elder statesman who understands the difficulties there and he can relate to the frustrations but it's simply a case of trying to deal with the least awful scenario because when it comes to the Middle East there are no good ones. Then stress that the administration is trying to get the heck out as soon as possible for that very reason.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:29 PM   #42
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Not a bad listing of talking points.

Each can be rebutted, and done so effectively, but your central point is correct -- it's a ton more difficult to defend a record than defend a mere platform.

My rule of thumb for this debate would be, the more you can talk about Ryan's budget, the better for Biden.

I simply don't think it's a winner, and I earnestly believe you folks agree with me on that.

Well, he can do that, but after 4-5 times of Ryan explaining that the budget is a starting point that is usually negotiated, but that the Democrats in the senate never produced a budget and Obama's budget couldn't even get a single Democrat vote (insert bi-partisan dig here) and that it isn't the plan we're running on you start to sound obtuse.

I think the left is missing the point that the reason Romney's had a surge of sorts is because he isn't the monster they made him out to be. Calling him a liar for being moderate sounding isn't going to work with most people. I realize it's all they got, but as long as Romney is an acceptable alternative Obama has real problems IMO.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:29 PM   #43
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I think this is the Ringleader-Direckshun-Austin show...
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:30 PM   #44
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BTW. that is by far Biden's best bet on foreign policy. Americans are tired of the Middle East and see it as hopeless. Biden should paint himself as an elder statesman who understands the difficulties there and he can relate to the frustrations but it's simply a case of trying to deal with the least awful scenario because when it comes to the Middle East there are no good ones. Then stress that the administration is trying to get the heck out as soon as possible for that very reason.
I don't think that'd be too bad of an angle.

It'd certainly be the easiest sell, you'd think.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:31 PM   #45
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1. Ryan's plan was endorsed by Romney.

2. Ryan's the freakin' veep. God forbid anything happening to Romney, but if anything did, we're stuck with Ryan.
1. So? It's not his plan now. I'm not sure why the left doesn't understand the plan, but I'm not going to convince anyone so I'll save the keystrokes...

2. That's the way it works...
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