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Old 10-23-2012, 07:43 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Syria: Iran's Path To The Sea

Can somebody explain this to me, please?

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MR. ROMNEY: Well, let's step back and talk about what's happening in Syria and how important it is. First of all, 30,000 people being killed by their government is a humanitarian disaster.

Secondly, Syria's an opportunity for us because Syria plays an important role in the Middle East, particularly right now. Syria is Iran's only ally in the Arab world. It's their route to the sea. It's the route for them to arm Hezbollah in Lebanon, which threatens, of course, our ally Israel. And so seeing Syria remove Assad is a very high priority for us. Number two, seeing a -- a replacement government being responsible people is critical for us. And finally, we don't want to have military involvement there. We don't want to get drawn into a military conflict.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:55 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
The last time the Navy studied the issue, they said they needed somewhere north of 310 ships to do their mission. That's down from the 330-400 ships we had during the Clinton administration which was down from the nearly 600 we had at the end of the cold war, but it's more than the 280 or so that we have now.

Which is down from the 6,000 we had during WWII. If you think the Navy didn't include a "cushion" then you're incredibly naive.

Regardless of the precise number, the US Navy is BY FAR the most powerful afloat. A fact which I absolutely approve of, by the way, and want to maintain. The hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of dollars that would be necessary to go from our current 280 to 330 or whatever needs to be cost justified, and I'm really not seeing the justification even if our debt/deficit situation was better than it is.

Belt tightening should be universal. Instead, Romney proposes feeding the fat military-industrial complex with more than even it has requested. Amazing. And amazingly stupid.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:56 PM   #92
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
The last time the Navy studied the issue, they said they needed somewhere north of 310 ships to do their mission. That's down from the 330-400 ships we had during the Clinton administration which was down from the nearly 600 we had at the end of the cold war, but it's more than the 280 or so that we have now.
Not sure about all your numbers, but I do know that the 280 number is from 2008 (pre-Obama). So, he wasn't the one doing the cutting.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:57 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
see that word up there? REPLACED?

with what? donut holes?
Yeah, "largely replaced." Which does not mean eliminated. ****ing moron.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:00 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
The point is that a ship to ship comparison is absolutely irrelevant and useless, because the warships of 1916 or whatever year Romney references didn't have one one-millionth of the firepower and power projection capabilities of the navy of 2012.

Might as well say we don't have as many tanks now as we had horses in [whatever year], it's EXACTLY the same thing.
We had 594 ships at the end of the cold war. If the comparison of capabilities between 1916 ships and modern ships is all that's important here, then why did we have so many more in 1989? The answer is that even though they're much more capable, the threats are also more capable and the mission of a superpower is much more complex than the mission of a relatively isolated regional power with no real natural threats.

Romney's comparison made for a dramatic, but not particularly informative statement.

Obama's retort was cute, but either meaningless or misleading depending on whether you're generous.

The fact is that we have too few ships to continue to perform the missions we've assigned to the navy since the end of the cold war. Our choice is between reducing the mission (lowering our capability) or building more and better ships/weapons systems. The navy is the most important branch of our armed forces and it's the last one that should have it's capabilities sacrificed for the sake of short term relief from our deficit. Attack the deficit by attacking it's drivers. Don't ignore the drivers with a bandaid purchased at the expense of our national security.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:02 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Not sure about all your numbers, but I do know that the 280 number is from 2008 (pre-Obama). So, he wasn't the one doing the cutting.
Agreed. The navy wasn't our top priority during the Bush years because we were fighting two land wars, but now that those wars are winding down, it's time to reinvest in that neglected and important service branch.

Here is a resource for the numbers.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:08 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Agreed. The navy wasn't our top priority during the Bush years because we were fighting two land wars, but now that those wars are winding down, it's time to reinvest in that neglected and important service branch.

Here is a resource for the numbers.
Yeah and aren't the Chinese growing their navy? There's so much turmoil on this planet that we'd be fools if we were to shrink our military.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:14 PM   #97
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Agreed. The navy wasn't our top priority during the Bush years because we were fighting two land wars, but now that those wars are winding down, it's time to reinvest in that neglected and important service branch.

Here is a resource for the numbers.
This is bad. In 1886, we had 13 Screw Steamers and 14 Screw Sloops.
Now? None. That is a drop of like 100%

Obama must answer for this gutting of our nation's naval force. Sure, there's no threats from the Spanish Armada today, but who knows what tomorrow will bring?

/Mitt Romney
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:18 PM   #98
Aries Walker Aries Walker is offline
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Has anyone noticed how many people (and not necessarily in this thread) are equating 1916 and 1917? There was a pretty significant event in there.

Also, some facts.

We still use bayonets, and in fact we have more now than we did in 1916, because we have more troops now than we did in 1916. Both the Army and the US Marines still use them.

I have a BA in history and have been reading it for decades. I am currently in an MA program for Military History, specifically. I have never heard the term 'Path to the Sea' used as a metaphor for an army's rear guard. That does not mean it's never been used in that sense, however, so the next time I speak to my Professor, I'll ask if he has.

The Persian Gulf, despite being named a gulf, is listed on Wikipedia's "List of Seas". Iran also borders the Gulf of Oman (aka the Sea of Oman), which is also on the same list. How much you believe Wikipedia in this case is up to you.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:19 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by philfree View Post
Yeah and aren't the Chinese growing their navy? There's so much turmoil on this planet that we'd be fools if we were to shrink our military.
We need more muskets! And Flintlock Pistol production has been almost completely ignored.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:25 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
We need more muskets! And Flintlock Pistol production has been almost completely ignored.
That's funny but it's also just plain dumb just as it was when Obama used the same tactic.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:27 PM   #101
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Yeah and aren't the Chinese growing their navy? There's so much turmoil on this planet that we'd be fools if we were to shrink our military.
Yes, they are up to 1 aircraft carrier--which may not actually be suitable for actually landing planes on it.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:29 PM   #102
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That's funny but it's also just plain dumb just as it was when Obama used the same tactic.
The tactic points out how it is ridiculous to measure our capabilites by counting today's equipment and comparing it to that of 100 years ago.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:31 PM   #103
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How do you calculate that $2 trillion? Or are you blindly accepting the number Obama has been using?

Isn't it the spread between current defense spending and the 4% of GDP target number that Romney has touted?
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:42 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
We had 594 ships at the end of the cold war. If the comparison of capabilities between 1916 ships and modern ships is all that's important here, then why did we have so many more in 1989?

The answer is that even though they're much more capable, the threats are also more capable and the mission of a superpower is much more complex than the mission of a relatively isolated regional power with no real natural threats.

Romney's comparison made for a dramatic, but not particularly informative statement.

Obama's retort was cute, but either meaningless or misleading depending on whether you're generous.

The fact is that we have too few ships to continue to perform the missions we've assigned to the navy since the end of the cold war. Our choice is between reducing the mission (lowering our capability) or building more and better ships/weapons systems. The navy is the most important branch of our armed forces and it's the last one that should have it's capabilities sacrificed for the sake of short term relief from our deficit. Attack the deficit by attacking it's drivers. Don't ignore the drivers with a bandaid purchased at the expense of our national security.

I love the vaccuum-based analysis. 280 ships isn't enough because we had more in 1989? Does it not matter what anyone/everyone else has? Is our biggest threat an invasion by China? Is Iran going to control the Gulf of Aden, somehow? Is the Russian Navy somehow a factor again?

Edit: Persian Gulf, duh.

Why don't we analyze our military spending in relation to actual risks and threats, and potential (but not implausible) risks and threats, and then allocate the money. Republicans too often have one simple mantra when it comes to military spending: "more is better".

The American Navy is unquestionably far and away the most powerful navy in the world. That doesn't even factor in America's ability to destroy enemy shipping by use of air power using our BY FAR largest in the world chain of military bases, including bases located very close to the home countries of our potential/likely enemies.

Let's face it, the modern navy is more about power projection than anything else. It's not really about making sure that enemy subs don't sink our shipping in the middle of the Atlantic or Pacific. Power projection isn't just aircraft carriers. It's about drones and air force and having the capability to bring multiple force types to bear in a very short timeframe to nearly every square foot of land in the world. The Navy is only a part of that capability.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:51 PM   #105
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Yeah because Iraq has done a great job of keeping Iran out.
They have ?....Southern Iraq damn near has as many Iranians as it does Iraqis...
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