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Old 10-23-2012, 07:43 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Syria: Iran's Path To The Sea

Can somebody explain this to me, please?

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MR. ROMNEY: Well, let's step back and talk about what's happening in Syria and how important it is. First of all, 30,000 people being killed by their government is a humanitarian disaster.

Secondly, Syria's an opportunity for us because Syria plays an important role in the Middle East, particularly right now. Syria is Iran's only ally in the Arab world. It's their route to the sea. It's the route for them to arm Hezbollah in Lebanon, which threatens, of course, our ally Israel. And so seeing Syria remove Assad is a very high priority for us. Number two, seeing a -- a replacement government being responsible people is critical for us. And finally, we don't want to have military involvement there. We don't want to get drawn into a military conflict.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:13 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Romania **** YES.

Hot blonde bitches who speak an odd yet incredibly hot form of Latina language that drives a man wild.
I know a girl from Bucharest. Smoking hot.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:14 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Romania **** YES.

Hot blonde bitches who speak an odd yet incredibly hot form of Latina language that drives a man wild.
REP
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:37 PM   #123
Dallas Chief Dallas Chief is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Romania **** YES.

Hot blonde bitches who speak an odd yet incredibly hot form of Latina language that drives a man wild.
Do I have to go to Romania to get one?
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:43 PM   #124
Pawnmower Pawnmower is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Chief View Post
Do I have to go to Romania to get one?
There are quite a few dye jobbed puerto ricans & mexicans to try and tide you over...but for that real thing.....

Yep...

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Old 10-23-2012, 07:46 PM   #125
stevieray stevieray is offline
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Yeah, "largely replaced." Which does not mean eliminated. ****ing moron.
with what, dipshit?
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:48 PM   #126
LiveSteam LiveSteam is offline
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Originally Posted by Dallas Chief View Post
Do I have to go to Romania to get one?
No. They are here. But the dirty ones I like best are over there for the most part.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:53 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
with what, dipshit?

You are arguing with a kid in high school that works at a Burger King.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:53 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
1916 or whatever year Romney used was his reference, right? Not ours.

In 1989 we were coming off a worldwide military arms-race with a superpower who was trying to match us in every type of military firepower you could name, right? Is that happening in 2012? If so I missed it. China's deep water navy is a joke at the moment.

WHAT exactly are worried about here?
You continue to cover ground that I've already covered so I'm only going to address the bolded part. We don't plan for a navy to counter the threat of today, we plan it to counter the threat of tomorrow. China is working hard to expand it's deep water capability. If we wait until China actually has a significant deep water navy, it will be too late to react.

I don't know what the right number of ships is, but I think we should defer to the Navy and it's assessment of the threat without putting external budgetary pressure on them as a result of the lack of will to get other parts of the budget under control.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:57 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
And I pointed out that you're a fool if you think they didn't bake in a cushion. "We need 310 so we can get 280" is standard military thinking, and probably has been since George freaking Washington.
In other words, you don't care what the experts say. No matter what they say, you'll want to give them less.

Let's at least agree that Obama appears to be lying when he claims that Mitt Romney wants to buy ships that the Navy doesn't even want. At least until he can point to a specific disconnect between Romney and the Navy.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:00 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Don't want to gut it. The joke is that Republicans think that any cut to anything anywhere is "gutting" a program that spends HALF of the total worldwide military spending in the world. What Social Security and other welfare programs are to the left, the military is to the right. Between the two sides, EVERYTHING becomes an untouchable ultra-high priority and trimming a dime off of it would unquestionably result in absolute CATASTROPHE.

Such thinking is why our national budget is completely ****ed, with no signs of ever getting fixed. Greece here we come, apparently.
One key difference between the programs you identify with the left and the military spending you identify with the right is that the former are actually driving the structural problems for our country's balance sheet and the latter are not.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:01 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
You continue to cover ground that I've already covered so I'm only going to address the bolded part. We don't plan for a navy to counter the threat of today, we plan it to counter the threat of tomorrow. China is working hard to expand it's deep water capability. If we wait until China actually has a significant deep water navy, it will be too late to react.
Agreed, but countering a greatly improved Chinese Navy isn't necessarily done just by comparing the number of keels. This isn't Great Britain trying to rule the seas just by having the most Ships of the Line.

Quote:
I don't know what the right number of ships is, but I think we should defer to the Navy and it's assessment of the threat without putting external budgetary pressure on them as a result of the lack of will to get other parts of the budget under control.
Comically naive to assume that the navy doesn't have its own agenda, which needs to be subject to oversight by politicians. The military always wants more, more, more and only fools just hand them the keys to the vault and say "whatever you need, YOU'RE the professionals."

I seem to remember a few wise words on this general topic.


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Originally Posted by Dwight David Eisenhower
Progress toward these noble goals is persistently threatened by the conflict now engulfing the world. It commands our whole attention, absorbs our very beings. We face a hostile ideology -- global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method. Unhappily the danger is poses promises to be of indefinite duration. To meet it successfully, there is called for, not so much the emotional and transitory sacrifices of crisis, but rather those which enable us to carry forward steadily, surely, and without complaint the burdens of a prolonged and complex struggle -- with liberty the stake. Only thus shall we remain, despite every provocation, on our charted course toward permanent peace and human betterment.

Crises there will continue to be. In meeting them, whether foreign or domestic, great or small, there is a recurring temptation to feel that some spectacular and costly action could become the miraculous solution to all current difficulties. A huge increase in newer elements of our defense; development of unrealistic programs to cure every ill in agriculture; a dramatic expansion in basic and applied research -- these and many other possibilities, each possibly promising in itself, may be suggested as the only way to the road we wish to travel.

But each proposal must be weighed in the light of a broader consideration: the need to maintain balance in and among national programs -- balance between the private and the public economy, balance between cost and hoped for advantage -- balance between the clearly necessary and the comfortably desirable; balance between our essential requirements as a nation and the duties imposed by the nation upon the individual; balance between actions of the moment and the national welfare of the future. Good judgment seeks balance and progress; lack of it eventually finds imbalance and frustration.

The record of many decades stands as proof that our people and their government have, in the main, understood these truths and have responded to them well, in the face of stress and threat. But threats, new in kind or degree, constantly arise. I mention two only.

IV.

A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.

Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.

In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.

Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.

Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientifictechnological elite.

It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system -- ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:08 PM   #132
WoodDraw WoodDraw is offline
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I have a question, and I don't think it's been answered anywhere.

But at what point do ships lose value? I mean, don't we assume that Russia and China have the technology to 1) find our massive ships/carriers/whatever they're called, and 2) have the missile capability to destroy them without driving a boat up next to them? Or they would have that technology by the time any conflict between us would likely exist (if they don't already?).

So in my uneducated eyes, you have two main classes: your naval assets you use for routine patrols, forward basing, and power shows, and second, your "strategic" assets - mainly your stealth subs.

Anyway, I think that's an important distinction to make. Although the entire argument is still stupid and merely political.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:09 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Agreed, but countering a greatly improved Chinese Navy isn't necessarily done just by comparing the number of keels. This isn't Great Britain trying to rule the seas just by having the most Ships of the Line.
Good grief. You act like I'm making this "requirement" for a 300+ ship navy out of the blue on my own. I'm basing it on the Navy's recommendation and I'm assuming that the Navy isn't basing their analysis on a simple comparison of the number of keels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Comically naive to assume that the navy doesn't have its own agenda, which needs to be subject to oversight by politicians. The military always wants more, more, more and only fools just hand them the keys to the vault and say "whatever you need, YOU'RE the professionals."

I seem to remember a few wise words on this general topic.
It's comical hubris to believe you have a better grip on Naval requirements than the Navy does. Or that you can simply assume that the Navy only needs 90% (or some other discount factor) of what it asks for.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:11 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
I have a question, and I don't think it's been answered anywhere.

But at what point do ships lose value? I mean, don't we assume that Russia and China have the technology to 1) find our massive ships/carriers/whatever they're called, and 2) have the missile capability to destroy them without driving a boat up next to them? Or they would have that technology by the time any conflict between us would likely exist (if they don't already?).

So in my uneducated eyes, you have two main classes: your naval assets you use for routine patrols, forward basing, and power shows, and second, your "strategic" assets - mainly your stealth subs.

Anyway, I think that's an important distinction to make. Although the entire argument is still stupid and merely political.
I don't think you'll get a definitive answer here (and I'm not sure you really expect one), but if the purpose of your question is to make a point, I think it's a good one.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:13 PM   #135
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In other words, you don't care what the experts say. No matter what they say, you'll want to give them less.
I think the upper echeleon of the military is also very smart and as capable of playing politics as any other branch of government. Actually, I **KNOW** that to be the case. I've read plenty of books on how decisions are made in Washington, most especially by Bob Woodward, who has pretty fantastic sources on such topics. You should read them.

The concept of a cold, dispassionate military machine that somehow operates without politics is an absurd myth. They're just as political as the State Department; they just wear snazzier suits with medals and such.

The branches of the military fight with each other over defense dollars, and fight with politicians over defense dollars in general, and programs in particular. Generals "retire" to join defense contractors to lobby former colleagues and former subordinates to choose their new employer to build the next multi-billion dollar project, and every general involved in procurement knows that their best, highest, post-military job opportunity involves working with the same companies to whom they award multi-billion dollar projects at public expense.

They also work with the same entrenched politicians on Capitol Hill to defend or increase defense spending, and defend their interests in inter-agency disputes with State, or the CIA, or whomever.

They are in fact, BY FAR, the largest and best financed portion of the federal government, with a massive body of loyal adherents in the form of former members of the military.

Again, don't get me wrong, I fully applaud having the largest, strongest military in the world, but far too many see the military and their budget as a completely untouchable, for reasons that just make no sense whatsoever. Just like any other branch of the government I believe good programs should be kept, bad programs trimmed, and that they require close supervision. Instead, many seem to think that the generals and admirals will govern themselves fine, just give them what they want. It's ridiculous.

Quote:
Let's at least agree that Obama appears to be lying when he claims that Mitt Romney wants to buy ships that the Navy doesn't even want. At least until he can point to a specific disconnect between Romney and the Navy.
Actually, let us not agree, since I haven't researched the topic at all and have only your word on it.
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