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Old 02-15-2016, 02:34 AM  
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So is this the revolution?

Many of us have talked over the past decade about a loss of trust in political parties and incumbents. Both parties cater to extremist views, both parties would rather hurt the country than help their opponents, and so on. Many of us have talked about a desire to vote out incumbents and start fresh.

But there's a problem in voting out incumbents. They don't want to be voted out, and they have both money and power inside the system.

In this election cycle, voters on both sides of the aisle are soundly rejecting establishment politics. Donald Trump is not a part of the establishment on the Republican side, and he's the most popular candidate even though no one really knows how he would operate. Bernie Sanders is not part of the establishment on the Democrat side, and he's the most popular candidate in part because Hillary Clinton is as popular and well-respected as small pox.

What's interesting to me is that these "outsider" candidates are not the centrists that We The People have been asking for. Bernie is farther to the left ideologically than his competitor, and Trump is a complete and total loose cannon. Yet people are clamoring for them. That tells me that their popularity is not so much because of their positions, but because of who they aren't. We The People are speaking, and we are rejecting the established Democrat and Republican parties.

Of course, they aren't going to just give up and respond to the will of the people. We're hearing that both party structures are doing everything they can to impede the outsider candidates, even to the point of blatantly ignoring the overtly professed will of the people.

So what happens if the Republican cigar-smokers kick out Trump and the Democrat cigar-smokers kick out Sanders? What happens if or when the major party rich people kick out the populist candidate and set Hillary Clinton and some Republican nutjob in front of the electorate?

In decades past, the spurned candidates would step aside "for the good of the party". But Sanders and Trump don't appear inclined to step aside, particularly if they each will have the majority vote in their party.

For the good of the country, I think the best possible outcome of the primary process would be for the two established parties to play their hand and go against the will of the people, and then see both Sanders and Trump remain in the race as independents. Sanders has enough popular support to keep the funding going, and Trump can fund his own or he'll steal from some widows to fund it.

If only one of the Trump/Sanders pair goes independent, it won't necessarily do much good, because it'll just guarantee that an establishment candidate will win. But if both of them run, we could have a really interesting four-way race, and I think there's a decent chance that one of the independents will win. And more importantly, I think they'll get enough votes to start undercutting the established parties. More than anything else, my ideal outcome in this election would be eliminate the two party structures. I want to eventually see multiple parties claiming House and Senate seats, and start thinking about the country for a change instead of their own money and power. A major threat to the two-party system at the presidential level would do a lot to kickstart that process.

What do you think? Is this the beginning of the revolution? Is this the election where the American people finally raise their voice en masse and exercise the power of democracy to force a sea change in American history? Or will it eventually revert back to business as usual, with rich and powerful people eating babies in the White House?
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Old 02-15-2016, 07:44 AM   #2
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It's too late. Too many sheeple with a 27 second attention span.
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Old 02-15-2016, 07:46 AM   #3
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"... because of who they arent"

Thats spot on

The lefts poobahs and their media arm are doing all they can to preemptively nominate Hillary... yet she is barely holding her own against an extreme leftist who came from out of nowhere

The rights bigshots were all in on Jeb, and yet he has been rejected out of hand, bottom of the barrel numbers... in favor of a reality tv businessman

On one hand, I think its great... people on both sides are fed up to their eyeballs with the status quo

On the other hand, it highlights an America as ideologically divided as its been since the Civil War, IMO... and that cant be a good thing
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Old 02-15-2016, 07:47 AM   #4
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I think politicians should pitch business interests like Peyton did. More exciting.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:06 AM   #5
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When I was a kid just getting started in Little League baseball, I came up with a great idea while I was playing catch with myself off the roof of my house. I realized that as an infielder, I might be able to get an easy double play if I just let a pop up drop to the ground instead of catching it. I was so excited to tell my dad of my realization, but my excitement was quickly extinguished when he told me the rule makers had already thought of my idea and they had something called the infield fly rule that prevented it. Disheartening.

I tell the story because Rain Man's idea is also one that's been preempted by the rule makers. None of these candidates, regardless of their fundraising ability will be able to mount an independent challenge by the time they get far enough along to know that the party establishments are going to "screw" them out of the nomination. In some states, they have sore loser laws that prevent the loser of a primary from running in the general election. In others, they have filing deadlines for the general election way too early for primary losers to meet them unless they drop out of the primary early. If Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders wants to run as a 3rd party candidate, we're fast approaching the deadlines for them to drop out of their major party primary processes.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:07 AM   #6
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I could see Trump going Independent if he has the majority of Rs wanting him (and rightfully so) but I just don't see Bernie doing that. He will never allow a R into the White House. As much as he wants to be President he wouldn't allow his pride to get in the way of the Dems losing an election.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:09 AM   #7
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I truly believe that Sanders is who he claims to be and is authentic, although his positions are anathema to me. I don't think that anyone can claim the same for Trump. About the only thing that he's been consistent on is that he's great and smart.

So, do I think either will be elected and bring revolution? No, I don't. I think Sanders is too far left and Trump is Trump. I actually understand the enthusiasm and excitement at a visceral level, but I hope that Americans will see the difference between that and actually running our country.

But, I've been wrong before.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:13 AM   #8
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I could definitely see bad things happening if the majority of people wanted both Trump and Bernie to be the nominees and neither get it. I think that could kick off a revolution.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:14 AM   #9
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The real revolution won't come until we're in crisis mode.

Could be a war, could be a depression.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:17 AM   #10
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Oh, and to answer the general question, no this isn't the revolution. This election will move the parties in some way designed to placate the disaffected, but in the end we'll remain a two party system because the structural design (50% plus 1 winner take all elections) dictates it. At most, there will be a realignment and the possibility of one of the parties being replaced by a new party (see Republicans vs Whigs), but the two party system is here to stay unless we make structural changes to our system.

If we adopted a system like proportional voting, multiple parties could emerge. For example, if Missouri's 8 representatives were all elected statewide from one large field of candidates where the top 8 vote getters won a seat, there would be room for special interest parties (e.g. the Farmers Party, The BLM party) to get enough votes to land a person in the House. You could even give each person 8 votes to allocate as they wished, one for 8 different candidates or 8 for one candidate that they really, really, want to see elected.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:36 AM   #11
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I think the tale is different for each party. The Democrats screwed themselves by letting this be a 1v1 race right out of the gate. The "not Hillary" vote all went to one person. If they had one or two other viable candidates Hillary would be roaring to victory. Republicans it's just the opposite. Start with like 19 candidates and 16 or so are interchangeable GOP-bots who divide the vote.

To the point of the OP, I would love to see that four-way race just to break the two-party stranglehold.
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Old 02-15-2016, 09:28 AM   #12
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Oh, and to answer the general question, no this isn't the revolution. This election will move the parties in some way designed to placate the disaffected, but in the end we'll remain a two party system because the structural design (50% plus 1 winner take all elections) dictates it. At most, there will be a realignment and the possibility of one of the parties being replaced by a new party (see Republicans vs Whigs), but the two party system is here to stay unless we make structural changes to our system.

If we adopted a system like proportional voting, multiple parties could emerge. For example, if Missouri's 8 representatives were all elected statewide from one large field of candidates where the top 8 vote getters won a seat, there would be room for special interest parties (e.g. the Farmers Party, The BLM party) to get enough votes to land a person in the House. You could even give each person 8 votes to allocate as they wished, one for 8 different candidates or 8 for one candidate that they really, really, want to see elected.
I guess I would at least consider that a small revolution.
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Old 02-15-2016, 09:50 AM   #13
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But there's a problem in voting out incumbents. They don't want to be voted out, and they have both money and power inside the system.
People with money and power will always use everything that have in their arsenal to remain in power.They are not going quietly into the good night. There are very few examples in history that throwing out the money and power interests was done withour violence. Are you ready to go there?
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A major threat to the two-party system at the presidential level would do a lot to kickstart that process.
It's been done several times but its not sustainable due to a lack of resources. The only way those resources become available is that people give up their comforts and commit. Again, history has shown us that unless their lives or liberty is at stake, humans have not made that choice. Broken political system anger will not rise to that level of commitment needed.
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Or will it eventually revert back to business as usual, with rich and powerful people eating babies in the White House?
This. People say they are angry but they are not angry enough to be ready to over turn the apple cart over and take on those consequences.
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Old 02-15-2016, 09:56 AM   #14
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If we adopted a system like proportional voting, multiple parties could emerge. For example, if Missouri's 8 representatives were all elected statewide from one large field of candidates where the top 8 vote getters won a seat, there would be room for special interest parties (e.g. the Farmers Party, The BLM party) to get enough votes to land a person in the House. You could even give each person 8 votes to allocate as they wished, one for 8 different candidates or 8 for one candidate that they really, really, want to see elected.
Then we are a parliamentary system. We will divide up into smaller one issue parties. The USA will become sectarian. I've seen that in action. It doesn't function any better for the people or keep the rich and powerful in check.
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Old 02-15-2016, 10:07 AM   #15
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Oh, and to answer the general question, no this isn't the revolution. This election will move the parties in some way designed to placate the disaffected, but in the end we'll remain a two party system because the structural design (50% plus 1 winner take all elections) dictates it. At most, there will be a realignment and the possibility of one of the parties being replaced by a new party (see Republicans vs Whigs), but the two party system is here to stay unless we make structural changes to our system.

If we adopted a system like proportional voting, multiple parties could emerge. For example, if Missouri's 8 representatives were all elected statewide from one large field of candidates where the top 8 vote getters won a seat, there would be room for special interest parties (e.g. the Farmers Party, The BLM party) to get enough votes to land a person in the House. You could even give each person 8 votes to allocate as they wished, one for 8 different candidates or 8 for one candidate that they really, really, want to see elected.
Pretty hard to see something like that happening, since the people who'd have to legislate it would all be from one of the two existing parties.

It would be good to have a third choice, IMO. Choosing between a centrist republican and a liberal democrat, which is what has happened for several cycles now, is not really a choice.

For me, you have a choice between GOP candidates that talk a good game and then fold to the Democrats once in office, and no other choice.

So my options are either stay home and in so doing assist the Democrats agenda, vote for a minor candidate or party and in so doing assist the Democrats agenda, or vote for a party largely of neutered schleps who will at least knock over some chairs in front of their agenda.

What I wish would happen is that somebody would start a Conservative party, the GOP can just be honest about itself and be the centrist party, and the Democrats could continue trying to turn the country into a socialist welfare state.

Then at least we'd have more than a bad/worse choice, we'd have parties with more freedom to be true to their agendas, and more instances of parties working together because you'd have to do so in order to get things done.
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