Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Royal Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-31-2012, 11:12 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $13533
Climate change is almost certainly responsible for storms like Sandy.

Starting a new thread on this, because this story has nothing to do with Al Gore. There's nothing more deniers of the true effects of climate change love to do more than reference Al Gore.

Don't give a shit about Gore. This is real science, and more and more experts in science and fields related to climate change are coming to the conclusion that the factors that produce storms are being amped up thanks to climate change.

Climate change is making storms like Sandy as big as they are, and as bizarre as they are. Climate change is making storms worse.

In addition to that, this is science that gigantic insurance corporations are starting to adjust to. It's so reliable that huge insurers are adjusting their bottom lines to account for it.

If global corporations are even starting to make radical adjustments to account for it, and you're still not buying it, ask yourself: how far from the reservation have you strayed?

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...rricane-sandy/

Did Climate Change Cause Hurricane Sandy?
By Mark Fischetti
October 30, 2012

If you’ve followed the U.S. news and weather in the past 24 hours you have no doubt run across a journalist or blogger explaining why it’s difficult to say that climate change could be causing big storms like Sandy. Well, no doubt here: it is.

The hedge expressed by journalists is that many variables go into creating a big storm, so the size of Hurricane Sandy, or any specific storm, cannot be attributed to climate change. That’s true, and it’s based on good science. However, that statement does not mean that we cannot say that climate change is making storms bigger. It is doing just that—a statement also based on good science, and one that the insurance industry is embracing, by the way. (Huh? More on that in a moment.)

Scientists have long taken a similarly cautious stance, but more are starting to drop the caveat and link climate change directly to intense storms and other extreme weather events, such as the warm 2012 winter in the eastern U.S. and the frigid one in Europe at the same time. They are emboldened because researchers have gotten very good in the past decade at determining what affects the variables that create big storms. Hurricane Sandy got large because it wandered north along the U.S. coast, where ocean water is still warm this time of year, pumping energy into the swirling system. But it got even larger when a cold Jet Stream made a sharp dip southward from Canada down into the eastern U.S. The cold air, positioned against warm Atlantic air, added energy to the atmosphere and therefore to Sandy, just as it moved into that region, expanding the storm even further.

Here’s where climate change comes in. The atmospheric pattern that sent the Jet Stream south is colloquially known as a “blocking high”—a big pressure center stuck over the very northern Atlantic Ocean and southern Arctic Ocean. And what led to that? A climate phenomenon called the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO)—essentially, the state of atmospheric pressure in that region. This state can be positive or negative, and it had changed from positive to negative two weeks before Sandy arrived. The climate kicker? Recent research by Charles Greene at Cornell University and other climate scientists has shown that as more Arctic sea ice melts in the summer—because of global warming—the NAO is more likely to be negative during the autumn and winter. A negative NAO makes the Jet Stream more likely to move in a big, wavy pattern across the U.S., Canada and the Atlantic, causing the kind of big southward dip that occurred during Sandy.

Climate change amps up other basic factors that contribute to big storms. For example, the oceans have warmed, providing more energy for storms. And the Earth’s atmosphere has warmed, so it retains more moisture, which is drawn into storms and is then dumped on us.

These changes contribute to all sorts of extreme weather. In a recent op-ed in the Washington Post, James Hansen at NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York blamed climate change for excessive drought, based on six decades of measurements, not computer models: “Our analysis shows that it is no longer enough to say that global warming will increase the likelihood of extreme weather and to repeat the caveat that no individual weather event can be directly linked to climate change. To the contrary, our analysis shows that, for the extreme hot weather of the recent past, there is virtually no explanation other than climate change.”

He went on to write that the Russian heat wave of 2010 and catastrophic droughts in Texas and Oklahoma in 2011 could each be attributed to climate change, concluding that “The odds that natural variability created these extremes are minuscule, vanishingly small. To count on those odds would be like quitting your job and playing the lottery every morning to pay the bills.”

Hanson also argued a year ago that Earth is entering a period of rapid climate change, so radical weather will be upon us sooner than we’d like. Scientific American just published a big feature article detailing the same point.

Indeed, if you’re a regular Scientific American reader, you might recall that another well-regarded scientist predicted behemoths such as Sandy in 2007. The article, by Kevin Trenberth, a senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, was presciently titled, “Warmer Oceans, Stronger Hurricanes.” Trenberth’s extensive analysis concluded that although the number of Atlantic hurricanes each year might not rise, the strength of them would.

Hurricane Sandy has emboldened more scientists to directly link climate change and storms, without the hedge. On Monday, as Sandy came ashore in New Jersey, Jonathan Foley, director of the Institute on the Environment at the University of Minnesota, tweeted: “Would this kind of storm happen without climate change? Yes. Fueled by many factors. Is [the] storm stronger because of climate change? Yes.”

Raymond Bradley, director of the Climate Systems Research Center at the University of Massachusetts, was quoted in the Vancouver Sun saying: “When storms develop, when they do hit the coast, they are going to be bigger and I think that’s a fair statement that most people could sign onto.”

A recent, peer-reviewed study published by several authors in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science concludes: “The largest cyclones are most affected by warmer conditions and we detect a statistically significant trend in the frequency of large surge events (roughly corresponding to tropical storm size) since 1923.”

Greg Laden, an anthropologist who blogs about culture and science, wrote this week in an online piece: “There is always going to be variation in temperature or some other weather related factor, but global warming raises the baseline. That’s true. But the corollary to that is NOT that you can’t link climate change to a given storm. All storms are weather, all weather is the immediate manifestation of climate, climate change is about climate.”

Now, as promised: If you still don’t believe scientists, then believe insurance giant Munich Re. In her October 29 post at the The New Yorker, writer Elizabeth Kolbert notes:

Quote:
Munich Re, one of the world’s largest reinsurance firms, issued a study titled “Severe Weather in North America.” According to the press release that accompanied the report, “Nowhere in the world is the rising number of natural catastrophes more evident than in North America.” … While many factors have contributed to this trend, including an increase in the number of people living in flood-prone areas, the report identified global warming as one of the major culprits: “Climate change particularly affects formation of heat-waves, droughts, intense precipitation events, and in the long run most probably also tropical cyclone intensity.”
Insurers, scientists and journalist are beginning to drop the caveats and simply say that climate change is causing big storms. As scientists collect more and more data over time, more of them will be willing to make the same data-based statements.
Posts: 45,212
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 02:18 PM   #136
tiptap tiptap is offline
Is this it?
 
tiptap's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2004
Casino cash: $5095
NO NO I used dam analogy about filling behind the dam = CO 2 level, water = energy captured by atmosphere greenhouse effect. So no no
__________________
Even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases. . . He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge." -H.L. Mencken
Posts: 4,996
tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 02:20 PM   #137
Donger Donger is offline
"Think BOOM!"
 
Donger's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 33.675° N 106.475° W
Casino cash: $1195
VARSITY
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiptap View Post
NO NO I used dam analogy about filling behind the dam = CO 2 level, water = energy captured by atmosphere greenhouse effect. So no no
Okay.

In post 114, you used these words: "Once that happens we will be at a tipping point."

I'm asking you to explain why.
__________________
I think the young people enjoy it when I "get down," verbally, don't you?
Posts: 77,410
Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 02:21 PM   #138
BigMeatballDave BigMeatballDave is online now
That's a cancerous meatball!
 
BigMeatballDave's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Casino cash: $12377
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Thank you.




No, you did not make a point, as no one ever asserted otherwise. At least not me.

I said:
This far north - not usual
This late in year - not usual
Both together - very, very unusual
Hey, dumbass. Meteors rarely collide with the Earth, but it happens.

Why are your panties in a bunch? Why is it when something rare happens, liberals put their tinfoil hats on and play Chicken Little?
Posts: 51,746
BigMeatballDave has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.BigMeatballDave has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.BigMeatballDave has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.BigMeatballDave has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.BigMeatballDave has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.BigMeatballDave has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.BigMeatballDave has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.BigMeatballDave has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.BigMeatballDave has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.BigMeatballDave has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.BigMeatballDave has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 02:21 PM   #139
tiptap tiptap is offline
Is this it?
 
tiptap's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2004
Casino cash: $5095
This was about lag in the effects of CO 2 on atmosphere
__________________
Even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases. . . He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge." -H.L. Mencken
Posts: 4,996
tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 02:24 PM   #140
tiptap tiptap is offline
Is this it?
 
tiptap's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2004
Casino cash: $5095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Okay.

In post 114, you used these words: "Once that happens we will be at a tipping point."

I'm asking you to explain why.
That is an abrupt jump in temperatures going forward. And I ask you to do some of the foot work. Find out the difference in albedo.
__________________
Even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases. . . He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge." -H.L. Mencken
Posts: 4,996
tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 02:25 PM   #141
Donger Donger is offline
"Think BOOM!"
 
Donger's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 33.675° N 106.475° W
Casino cash: $1195
VARSITY
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiptap View Post
That is an abrupt jump in temperatures going forward. And I ask you to do some of the foot work. Find out the difference in albedo.
How abrupt and what is the delta?
__________________
I think the young people enjoy it when I "get down," verbally, don't you?
Posts: 77,410
Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 02:26 PM   #142
vailpass vailpass is offline
Yah Mules!
 
vailpass's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2001
Casino cash: $10476
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiptap View Post
That is an abrupt jump in temperatures going forward. And I ask you to do some of the foot work. Find out the difference in albedo.
Albedo sitting by my swimming pool drinking margaritas and smoking cigars not giving a shit about global warming nutjobs in a couple hours.
__________________
It don't matter what line we hand you
When we come a crawlin' in.
We ain't wrong, we ain't sorry,
An' it's probably gonna happen again.

T. Byrd
Posts: 37,356
vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 02:27 PM   #143
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
Debunking your bullshit
 
cosmo20002's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: KC area
Casino cash: $15345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Hey, dumbass. Meteors rarely collide with the Earth, but it happens.

Why are your panties in a bunch? Why is it when something rare happens, liberals put their tinfoil hats on and play Chicken Little?
I just pointed out that it is rare. I didn't claim it was proof of anything.
__________________
Posts: 19,407
cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 02:29 PM   #144
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
Debunking your bullshit
 
cosmo20002's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: KC area
Casino cash: $15345
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass View Post
Albedo sitting by my swimming pool drinking margaritas and smoking cigars not giving a shit about global warming nutjobs in a couple hours.
Thanks for the update. If you need to sneeze or wipe your nose or anything, please check back in.
__________________
Posts: 19,407
cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 02:30 PM   #145
vailpass vailpass is offline
Yah Mules!
 
vailpass's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2001
Casino cash: $10476
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Thanks for the update. If you need to sneeze or wipe your nose or anything, please check back in.
I don't remember asking you a goddamn thing.
__________________
It don't matter what line we hand you
When we come a crawlin' in.
We ain't wrong, we ain't sorry,
An' it's probably gonna happen again.

T. Byrd
Posts: 37,356
vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 03:14 PM   #146
demonhero demonhero is offline
Starter
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kansas/bama
Casino cash: $5000
time to send the hippies up in outer space on a spaceship destined for Mars. Hopefully there will be enough rocket fuel to boost them past Mars and let perpetual motion take them to the sun.......
Posts: 986
demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 03:15 PM   #147
tiptap tiptap is offline
Is this it?
 
tiptap's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2004
Casino cash: $5095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
How abrupt and what is the delta?
I want to back up. The tipping point IS the lost of summer polar ice. I can't accurately predict going forward from that point because it itself represents, is the discontinuity. The empirical measure of ice goes to zero. The difference in albedo represents the additional potential addition of energy. But I can't predict how the Arctic will react in say cloud cover for example. We don't have any experience with this. That is why it is a tipping point. You are doing the experiment on the earth. Your earth. Because being 61 I likely won't have to live with the fallout.
__________________
Even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases. . . He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge." -H.L. Mencken
Posts: 4,996
tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.tiptap must have mowed badgirl's lawn.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 03:20 PM   #148
demonhero demonhero is offline
Starter
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kansas/bama
Casino cash: $5000
Screw the polar bears.. I ain't got time to give them a bear hug..... let the ice melt.
Posts: 986
demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.demonhero has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 03:21 PM   #149
Donger Donger is offline
"Think BOOM!"
 
Donger's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 33.675° N 106.475° W
Casino cash: $1195
VARSITY
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiptap View Post
I want to back up. The tipping point IS the lost of summer polar ice. I can't accurately predict going forward from that point because it itself represents, is the discontinuity. The empirical measure of ice goes to zero. The difference in albedo represents the additional potential addition of energy. But I can't predict how the Arctic will react in say cloud cover for example. We don't have any experience with this. That is why it is a tipping point. You are doing the experiment on the earth. Your earth. Because being 61 I likely won't have to live with the fallout.
Sounds like an unknown, not a tipping point.

You agree that "nature" tends toward equilibrium, yes?
__________________
I think the young people enjoy it when I "get down," verbally, don't you?
Posts: 77,410
Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.Donger is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 03:21 PM   #150
vailpass vailpass is offline
Yah Mules!
 
vailpass's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2001
Casino cash: $10476
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonhero View Post
Screw the polar bears.. I ain't got time to give them a bear hug..... let the ice melt.
The important thing is that there is still ice in my drink.
__________________
It don't matter what line we hand you
When we come a crawlin' in.
We ain't wrong, we ain't sorry,
An' it's probably gonna happen again.

T. Byrd
Posts: 37,356
vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.vailpass is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:34 AM.


This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.