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Old 10-31-2012, 11:48 AM  
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
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Do you think Heaven exists?

As some of you may know or not I lost my mom 3 weeks ago and I am sort of struggling with my beliefs with this. She wanted to die so she could go to Heaven instead of getting her colon out. She definitely believed in Heaven and I honestly hope she wasn't disappointed.

My heart wants to believe in Heaven for the simple fact I want to see her again along with my grandma and sometime in the near future my dad.

My head tells me logically that there is probably no heaven and I get a little upset when people say she is in a better place because I really want to say Is she or how do you know?

So I am curious what you guys\gals believe and I am wondering outside of what the bible says has there been anything you have witnessed or experienced that lead you to believe one way or another?



Edit: I do appreciate all the kind words of support it does mean alot but I am not wanting this to be a sympathy thread so any argument for against is fine by me. There will be no offense taken. So have at it.

Last edited by dirk digler; 10-31-2012 at 03:05 PM..
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:16 PM   #136
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I believe in an afterlife simply because I just cant process the thought of there being NOTHING when you die. That would be worse than hell IMO.

But I don't believe in the religious versions of heaven. They just don't make that much sense.

And fwiw, that 8 year old that went to heaven said that he saw the version of angels that is shown on Tv/books and other outlets. That makes literally no sense because the biblical versions of angels look more like monsters than humans with robes and wings.

So my theory is that it was all a hallucination, or they were stories told to him by his preacher parents that turned into memories during his coma.

I don't think anyone has experienced any afterlife. No one has ever DIED and then come back. There's a difference between real death and clinically dead. And no one has ever experienced real death so I cant believe stories from people who say they've died and went to heaven or hell or w/e.
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In the book and the reason why his parents believed him is because he told them things he wouldn't know otherwise since he was floating out of his body, like what his dad was praying in a different room, his mom child that died etc etc
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:20 PM   #137
stevieray stevieray is offline
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There is no "god" of silly ancient scribblings. The god project has found over 100,000 gods that have been worshiped at some point here on earth. You choose to disbelieve 99,999 of them, I just take that one step further.

Whatever it is that people call god, that "thing" they connect to and then just "know" there is a god, is inside all of us. No need for superstition or supernatural explanations. The Hindu, Moslem, Christian, Buddhist religious experience is reported as virtually the same thing.

But its not because of some ancient divining of goat entails, rather a connection to a deep part of our own brain's subconscious.
no offense... but you're digging your own grave.


you've changed the meaning of soul to fit your agenda ...it means the spirit, essence, core of someone, something seperated from the physical body...the body dies, yet the spirit doesn't.... need proof? tell dirk the spirit of his mom doesn't exist, or the emotions and feelings that spirit produce.

..you've also claimed your version is something inside of us that you can't see, but is obtainable, yet you have claimed many times that God doesn't exist, and isn't obtainable...quite the conundrum.

you claim that all religions are alike, yet they aren't..not even close....and even then, 99.9 percent of the time, you only go after the belief of Christ, it's the only one you feel the need to invalidate and mock.

I'm reminded of the story of the guy who said in searching for truth, he was convinced Christ was the way, because all the others said he wasn't.

there are three heavens..the one where the birds fly, the one where the stars are, and the one where God resides.

if you aren't seeking truth, and only falsehoods, it's impossible for the truth to be revealed to you.

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Old 11-01-2012, 12:59 PM   #138
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Why?

The answer of course, is arrogance. We all long to be special, its why video games like Fable are so popular. We crave privilege. Sagan said it better than I. He is a special word smith but hit the nail so eloquently:


Philosophy and religion cautioned that the gods (or God) were far more powerful than we, jealous of their prerogatives and quick to mete out justice for insufferable arrogance. At the same time, these disciplines had not a clue that their own teaching of how the Universe is ordered was a conceit and a delusion.

Every other proposal, and their number is legion, to displace us from cosmic center stage has also been resisted, in part for similar reasons. We seem to crave privilege, merited not by our work, but by our birth, by the mere fact that, say, we are humans and born on Earth. We might call it the anthropocentric—the “human-centered”—conceit. This conceit is brought close to culmination in the notion that we are created in God’s image: The Creator and Ruler of the entire Universe looks just like me. My, what a coincidence. How convenient and satisfying! -Carl Sagan
I'd suggest to Mr. Sagan that it is just as arrogant and convenient to suggest something doesn't exist just because you don't know our can't find an answer. In fact Mr. Sagan, you're acting like those scientists that thought once upon a time the world was flat.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:08 PM   #139
Bump Bump is offline
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
no offense... but you're digging your own grave.


you've changed the meaning of soul to fit your agenda ...it means the spirit, essence, core of someone, something seperated from the physical body...the body dies, yet the spirit doesn't.... need proof? tell dirk the spirit of his mom doesn't exist, or the emotions and feelings that spirit produce.

..you've also claimed your version is something inside of us that you can't see, but is obtainable, yet you have claimed many times that God doesn't exist, and isn't obtainable...quite the conundrum.

you claim that all religions are alike, yet they aren't..not even close....and even then, 99.9 percent of the time, you only go after the belief of Christ, it's the only one you feel the need to invalidate and mock.

I'm reminded of the story of the guy who said in searching for truth, he was convinced Christ was the way, because all the others said he wasn't.

there are three heavens..the one where the birds fly, the one where the stars are, and the one where God resides.

if you aren't seeking truth, and only falsehoods, it's impossible for the truth to be revealed to you.
he makes fun of it, like myself, because it's just sooo stupid and needs to be made fun of.

Those who aren't able to be brainwashed, controlled and manipulated are the only people who can understand.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:11 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Bump View Post
he makes fun of it, like myself, because it's just sooo stupid and needs to be made fun of.

Those who aren't able to be brainwashed, controlled and manipulated are the only people who can understand.


poor bump
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:41 PM   #141
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he makes fun of it, like myself, because it's just sooo stupid and needs to be made fun of.

Those who aren't able to be brainwashed, controlled and manipulated are the only people who can understand.
You have unwittingly revealed yourself to be one who has been controlled, manipulated and brainwashed. Otherwise you would not be able to communicate, voice your thoughts (know they are even ‘thoughts’) or exist successfully in society. To ‘learn’ is to be “brainwashed, controlled and manipulated”.
And with everything I’ve stated I admit I’m conceding you truly may be right and know nothing since you aren’t one who’s been controlled, manipulated or brainwashed.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:16 PM   #142
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I agree with you for the most part. But shouldn't there be a point in which belief can be detrimental? Like say, your child believes that mermaids are real. It doesn't hurt anything for her to believe that. But some parents feel the motivation to correct it, so that their children will believe what they perceive as the truth.
Sure, and if it was a dangerous belief like "I can fly so I'm going to jump off of this 30th floor balcony to demonstrate" then it absolutely makes sense to try to disprove their belief.

Some people have beliefs that aren't particularly dangerous, but they're nutty. Bump and CoMo are an examples of people with many of these beliefs. I think it's OK to try to straighten these people out too, but it's not as important to do it as if their beliefs were actually dangerous.

But this is a case of a widespread belief that isn't harmful and often, IMO, actually improves people's lives.

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I think most times, people like Dave Lane are trying to show people what they believe is the truth. It's not necessarily motivated by a need to prove someone else wrong, but a need to provide what they honestly feel is truth. Even though it doesn't always come out that way.

In the case of this thread, dirk's grandmother was so convinced in Heaven that she wanted to die before her physical body was ready to give up. If there isn't a heaven, then she would be ceasing her existence earlier than what would be natural, and would be missing part of life because of incorrect beliefs. It's a slippery slope for sure, but I can understand why people are passionate about both sides, and would say something as opposed to simply letting a loved one believe something you think is wrong.
I doubt that that's really a fair take. It sounds to me like his grandmother chose to allow her body to expire naturally rather that to undergo a major surgical intervention with who knows what kind of downstream implications in terms of quality of life. He doesn't say what kind of quality of life she'd been experiencing or what she could expect if she went through with the life extending surgery, but I doubt that she was ready to go to heaven if life was still grand.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:29 PM   #143
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
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I doubt that that's really a fair take. It sounds to me like his grandmother chose to allow her body to expire naturally rather that to undergo a major surgical intervention with who knows what kind of downstream implications in terms of quality of life. He doesn't say what kind of quality of life she'd been experiencing or what she could expect if she went through with the life extending surgery, but I doubt that she was ready to go to heaven if life was still grand.
My mom was 77, had Parkinson but otherwise was in good health. They needed to remove her colon due to an infection she received in the nursing home, she said no. I asked her why a hundred times and she never gave a reason. My guess is dealing with a bag on her side was not lady like, downstream implications of not having a colon + having Parkison's so she chose to die and go to Heaven. Her exact words were "I am ready to go be with Jesus."
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:31 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
My mom was 77, had Parkinson but otherwise was in good health. They needed to remove her colon due to an infection she received in the nursing home, she said no. I asked her why a hundred times and she never gave a reason. My guess is dealing with a bag on her side was not lady like, downstream implications of not having a colon + having Parkison's so she chose to die and go to Heaven. Her exact words were "I am ready to go be with Jesus."
She's in good hands now.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:32 PM   #145
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She's in good hands now.
Is she?
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:35 PM   #146
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Is she?
Yes Dirk, she can rest now and wait for the second coming.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:40 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Bump View Post
he makes fun of it, like myself, because it's just sooo stupid and needs to be made fun of.

Those who aren't able to be brainwashed, controlled and manipulated are the only people who can understand.
please don't ruin the thread..your vote has been cast...
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:01 PM   #148
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:01 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
My mom was 77, had Parkinson but otherwise was in good health. They needed to remove her colon due to an infection she received in the nursing home, she said no. I asked her why a hundred times and she never gave a reason. My guess is dealing with a bag on her side was not lady like, downstream implications of not having a colon + having Parkison's so she chose to die and go to Heaven. Her exact words were "I am ready to go be with Jesus."
I am sorry for your loss. I hope you know I wasn't trying to imply anything with regards to your late grandmother's intentions. I do hope you somehow find peace with the situation.

I will say that I lost my own grandmother about 8 years ago, and it ended up being my religious undoing. I was closer to my late grandmother in many ways than my own mother. My grandmother had more responsibility in raising me and giving me my core values than any other person in the world. When she was gone, I guess I had some type of expectation that she would still be with me, and she would still be aware of how my life was going. But my experiences following her death essentially caused me to give up on my religion and seek my own form of enlightenment.

I understand what you're going through. And it really sucks. But my advice would be to keep talking about it even if you don't understand what you're feeling, and don't try to bury your emotions. It will take a long time, but it will get better. Take comfort knowing that you'll never forget all the ways she affected your life, and her knowledge and ideals are now part of you, and make you the person you are.
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:03 PM   #150
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Heaven


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