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Old 11-04-2012, 09:54 PM  
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Romney paid nearly zero taxes from 1996-2009?

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...donations.html

Romney Avoids Taxes via Loophole Cutting Mormon Donations
By Jesse Drucker - Oct 28, 2012 11:01 PM CT

In 1997, Congress cracked down on a popular tax shelter that allowed rich people to take advantage of the exempt status of charities without actually giving away much money.

Individuals who had already set up these vehicles were allowed to keep them. That included Mitt Romney, then the chief executive officer of Bain Capital, who had just established such an arrangement in June 1996.

The charitable remainder unitrust, as it is known, is one of several strategies Romney has adopted over his career to reduce his tax bill. While Romney’s tax avoidance is legal and common among high-net-worth individuals, it has become an issue in the campaign. President Barack Obama attacked him in their second debate for paying “lower tax rates than somebody who makes a lot less.”

In this instance, Romney used the tax-exempt status of a charity -- the Mormon Church, according to a 2007 filing -- to defer taxes for more than 15 years. At the same time he is benefiting, the trust will probably leave the church with less than what current law requires, according to tax returns obtained by Bloomberg this month through a Freedom of Information Act request.
In general, charities don’t owe capital gains taxes when they sell assets for a profit. Trusts like Romney’s permit funders to benefit from that tax-free treatment, said Jonathan Blattmachr, a trusts and estates lawyer who set up hundreds of such vehicles in the 1990s.

Near Zero

“The main benefit from a charitable remainder trust is the renting from your favorite charity of its exemption from taxation,” Blattmachr said. Despite the name, giving a gift or getting a charitable deduction “is just a throwaway,” he said. “I used to structure them so the value dedicated to charity was as close to zero as possible without being zero.”

When individuals fund a charitable remainder unitrust, or “CRUT,” they defer capital gains taxes on any profit from the sale of the assets, and receive a small upfront charitable deduction and a stream of yearly cash payments. Like an individual retirement account, the trust allows money to grow tax deferred, while like an annuity it also pays Romney a steady income. After the funder’s death, the trust’s remaining assets go to a designated charity.

Romney’s CRUT, which is only a small part of the $250 million that Romney’s campaign cites as his net worth, has been paying him 8 percent of its assets each year. As the Romneys have received these payments, the money that will potentially be left for charity has declined from at least $750,000 in 2001 to $421,203 at the end of 2011.

Tax Returns

The Romney campaign declined to answer written questions about the trust.
“The trust has operated in accordance with the law,” Michele Davis, a campaign spokeswoman, said in an e-mail.

Paul Comstock, a financial adviser to LDS Philanthropies, an arm of the Mormon Church, said that while he wasn’t familiar with the trust, Romney and his trustee might arrange to compensate the church for the dwindling amount with other gifts.

“It may be that they’ve made provisions for the charity someplace else that will make up for what this isn’t going to give them,” Comstock said.

Bloomberg News obtained the trust’s tax returns from 2007 to 2011 from the Internal Revenue Service. Romney hasn’t disclosed the trust’s tax returns and is under no legal obligation to do so. He did make some disclosures about the trust’s investments in Massachusetts filings from 2002 to 2007 and as a presidential candidate in the current campaign.

After Death

Funds held by Romney’s trust are scheduled to be distributed after the death of Romney and his wife to “a charitable organization to be designated by Romney,” according to the 2007 filing, disclosing assets he held while governor of Massachusetts. “In the absence of such a designation the funds will go to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.”

Davis declined to comment on whether Romney has designated another charity since then.

Romney has been an active member of the church, which expects members to donate 10 percent of their income. Over the years, he has donated millions of dollars of stock in Bain-owned companies to the church, securities filings show.
The church recommends such trusts on its website as one of many options for donors.

“Probably one of the advantages of a charitable remainder trust is that it helps with capital gains tax,” said Carl McLelland, an attorney in the planned giving office for LDS Philanthropies.

Capital Gains

CRUTs were more common in the 1990s when capital gains rates were higher. In 1996, when Romney set up his trust in Massachusetts, the federal rate was 28 percent, compared with 15 percent today. At the time, a Massachusetts state resident who sold shares for a gain of $1 million could have faced a combined state and federal capital gains tax of as much as 40 percent, reducing his take to $600,000.

By contrast, if he contributed the stock to a CRUT, and it sold the shares, it typically wouldn’t owe any tax since it is a charitable trust. The CRUT could reinvest the $1 million and earn a return on the full amount.

“The power of this is the tax deferral,” said Jay A. Friedman, a partner at accounting firm Perelson Weiner LLP in New York. “The money is all growing tax free and he only pays tax on what is distributed to him.”

Concerned that CRUTS weren’t sufficiently philanthropic, Congress mandated in July 1997 that the present value of what was projected to be left for charity must equal at least 10 percent of the initial contribution. Existing CRUTS weren’t affected by the new law.

Dwindling Principal

Romney’s trust was projected to leave to charity an amount with a present value of a little less than 8 percent of the initial contribution, according to an analysis by Friedman. Thus, the specifics of Romney’s trust wouldn’t have passed legal muster if it had been set up 13 months later, he said.

Because the trust’s investments have been earning a return far below its annual payouts to the Romneys, its principal has dwindled rapidly.

In 2001, five years after it was established, the trust had a value of between $750,000 and $1.25 million. Since then, it has pursued a conservative investment strategy -- regardless of the ups and downs of the stock market -- buying a mix of money- market funds, federally-backed bonds and federal bond funds. Since 2007, it has moved its assets entirely into cash. By 2011, its investments earned a return of $48, down from between $60,001 and $100,000 in 2001. It paid $36,696 to the Romneys in 2011.

Romneys Favored

The current investing strategy favors the Romneys over the charity because they get a guaranteed payout, said Michael Arlein, a trusts and estates lawyer at Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler LLP.

“The Romneys get theirs off the top and the charity gets what’s left,” he said. “So by definition, if it’s not performing as well, the charity gets harmed more.”
The trustee for Romney’s CRUT is R. Bradford Malt, chairman of the law firm Ropes & Gray LLP, and manager for Romney’s various family trusts as well as his personal attorney. Ropes & Gray has also been for years the main outside counsel for Bain Capital.

If the CRUT maintains the same investing strategy, assets will continue to shrink, said Jerome M. Hesch, a tax and estate planning attorney at the law firm Carlton Fields. The trustee acted prudently in protecting against losses during a stock market decline, he said.

Nevertheless, “what’s going to go to charity is probably close to nothing,” Hesch said.

To contact the reporter on this story: Jesse Drucker in New York at jdrucker4@bloomberg.net
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:14 AM   #16
Pawnmower Pawnmower is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Who give a shit?

If I were wealthy, I'd hire a lawyer and an accountant to help me find a legal way to pay the least amount of taxes possible.
Exactly...

13% of a metric **** load is still a LOT of ****ign taxes...

Can you really ****ing blame ANYONE for avoiding taxes (legally)?

I mean who here goes to their tax guy or fills out the forms and REFUSES to take advantage of the write offs and deductions?

I'm gonna guess NO ONE.

Let me guess, Jensen goes to HNR Block and asks to pay the maximum with no write offs?

Pitt Gorrilla?

Go Bowe?

Who ****ing here refuses every write off or doesnt take every single deduction they possibly can (and then some!) LOL

Hypocrites, honestly.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:27 AM   #17
BigMeatballDave BigMeatballDave is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Exactly...

13% of a metric **** load is still a LOT of ****ign taxes...

Can you really ****ing blame ANYONE for avoiding taxes (legally)?

I mean who here goes to their tax guy or fills out the forms and REFUSES to take advantage of the write offs and deductions?

I'm gonna guess NO ONE.

Let me guess, Jensen goes to HNR Block and asks to pay the maximum with no write offs?

Pitt Gorrilla?

Go Bowe?

Who ****ing here refuses every write off or doesnt take every single deduction they possibly can (and then some!) LOL

Hypocrites, honestly.
Even if he's only paying 10%, he's paid more in one year than I'll make in my lifetime.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:34 AM   #18
Pawnmower Pawnmower is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Even if he's only paying 10%, he's paid more in one year than I'll make in my lifetime.
Exactly...And I am willing to bet that every person who is complaining about Mitt Romney's taxes either:

1) Pays less % taxes than him (after getting the refund)

and/or

2) Tries to also avoid paying taxes legally, and takes advantage of every loophole they can.



The thing is , much of Mitt's money was already taxed.........things like capital gains are often a second, third, 4th etc....round of getting taxed on the same money.

Personally I don't think we should pay taxes more than once or MAYBE twice....(Once when we earn it, and once when we spend)..as it is now it is ridiculous....

If it were up to me, I would abolish all income taxes and only have taxes on what you consume.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:38 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Exactly...And I am willing to bet that every person who is complaining about Mitt Romney's taxes either:

1) Pays less % taxes than him (after getting the refund)

and/or

2) Tries to also avoid paying taxes legally, and takes advantage of every loophole they can.



The thing is , much of Mitt's money was already taxed.........things like capital gains are often a second, third, 4th etc....round of getting taxed on the same money.

Personally I don't think we should pay taxes more than once or MAYBE twice....(Once when we earn it, and once when we spend)..as it is now it is ridiculous....

If it were up to me, I would abolish all income taxes and only have taxes on what you consume.
And you can bet every damn democrat, even Barry, are doing the same things Romney is doing.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:55 AM   #20
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It was legal when it was created. It wouldn't be legal now, because it's a simple tax shell under the guise of charity and according to the text, congress acted to limit this type of tax evasion, avoidance, limiting, whatever.

Fine, cool, take care of your money - i'm no better and i don't pay as many taxes as romney or would i avoid a write off. But i'm not running for president of the united states and i don't enjoy the lifestyle that being a quarter of a billionaire provides, either.

Watching the wealthy take advantage of monetary loopholes that aren't available to the average person is just ****ing annoying. Like people buying hummers on the truck credit a few years back, or using cash for clunkers to fund their new jaguar. It's legal, I'm not above it - but I'm not running for public office. It's just another reason why Mitt is so damn annoying and a lot of people will never identify with him or ever think he gives a **** about anyone below the financial top 2% in the country.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:10 AM   #21
Pawnmower Pawnmower is offline
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Originally Posted by lostcause View Post
Fine, cool, take care of your money - i'm no better and i don't pay as many taxes as romney or would i avoid a write off. But i'm not running for president of the united states and i don't enjoy the lifestyle that being a quarter of a billionaire provides, either.
So because he is rich he should be held to a higher standard than you? Its OK for you to 'not avoid write offs' but he SHOULD avoid them?

Why would you blame him for following laws made by OTHER PEOPLE?

Do you actually think a person like Romney , given all of his charities and business dealings would do ANYTHING other than 100% try his best to get the economy moving and get you into a better position to make more money?

Its almost like there is a culture of blaming the people who are successful instead of trying to emulate them and learn from them.

Being angry at others for their success? Why? Truly baffling.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:20 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
So because he is rich he should be held to a higher standard than you? Its OK for you to 'not avoid write offs' but he SHOULD avoid them?

Why would you blame him for following laws made by OTHER PEOPLE?

Do you actually think a person like Romney , given all of his charities and business dealings would do ANYTHING other than 100% try his best to get the economy moving and get you into a better position to make more money?

Its almost like there is a culture of blaming the people who are successful instead of trying to emulate them and learn from them.

Being angry at others for their success? Why? Truly baffling.
We should all use sham charitable trusts to avoid paying taxes? The discussion isn't work hard and reap the reward, it's how to take a bunch of money and hide it from taxes.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:23 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by lostcause View Post
We should all use sham charitable trusts to avoid paying taxes? The discussion isn't work hard and reap the reward, it's how to take a bunch of money and hide it from taxes.
If I was your lawyer / tax adviser / accountant I would feel like I wasn't doing my job properly if I didn't make available every possible opportunity for you to keep YOUR money that YOU earned and avoid paying taxes on it.

Yes HIDE it from taxes. Isn't that what you already said YOU do as well? (Along with every other person in this country)

If it is legal, why wouldn't you ?
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:58 AM   #24
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I'm certainly not complaining, don't have a problem with it, and don't think it's an issue. It sounds great to me. No need to project.
Right. That was your motive for starting the thread.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:26 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
The fact that anyone would think that anybody's method for paying taxes within legal means is an issue shows how ****ed up politics has become.

Disagree on political positions. I don't know why anybody gives a shit about this position. It's pretty amazing that this issue has raised 100 times more scrutiny than Libya.
**** politics. This is what pisses me off about the tax code. It needs to be fixed. Good on him for finding a way to dodge his responsibility to this country. That's ****ing capitalism really. But the tax code needs to be completely eliminated revamped.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:29 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
So because he is rich he should be held to a higher standard than you? Its OK for you to 'not avoid write offs' but he SHOULD avoid them?

Why would you blame him for following laws made by OTHER PEOPLE?

Do you actually think a person like Romney , given all of his charities and business dealings would do ANYTHING other than 100% try his best to get the economy moving and get you into a better position to make more money?

Its almost like there is a culture of blaming the people who are successful instead of trying to emulate them and learn from them.

Being angry at others for their success? Why? Truly baffling.
It's a little long, but it's worth listening too.

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Old 11-05-2012, 05:43 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostcause View Post
We should all use sham charitable trusts to avoid paying taxes? The discussion isn't work hard and reap the reward, it's how to take a bunch of money and hide it from taxes.
You're a joke.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:45 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts View Post
**** politics. This is what pisses me off about the tax code. It needs to be fixed. Good on him for finding a way to dodge his responsibility to this country. That's ****ing capitalism really. But the tax code needs to be completely eliminated revamped.
He's now dodging his responsibility to this country? Who decides what that is? Certainly, the Constitution is silent on that. I think you're being sarcastic. Right?

And, NO, that is NOT capitalism. That's the tax code.

What are your ideas on reforming the tax code then?
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:46 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts View Post
**** politics. This is what pisses me off about the tax code. It needs to be fixed. Good on him for finding a way to dodge his responsibility to this country. That's ****ing capitalism really. But the tax code needs to be completely eliminated revamped.
Dodge his responsibility? You're a joke too.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:47 AM   #30
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rich people are so cool.
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