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Old 11-06-2012, 06:43 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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The un-discussed issue this election cycle: drones.

I've written about how much I've really come to hate our unaccountable drone war that goes through no due process, no legislative mandate, and no transparency in how the Pentagon reports its results.

It's already been pointed out that our drone campaign is inefficient and creates more terrorists. Mitt Romney himself has argued that killing cannot be our answer anymore in the Middle East.

Conservatives: do you trust John Edwards with unlimited drone ability?

Liberals: do you trust Sarah Palin with unlimited drone ability?

Because if you can't, and these people could have become President over the past however-many years, then this program needs to change.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...-campaign.html

Why Drones Stayed Out of Sight in the 2012 Campaign
By Ramesh Ponnuru
Nov 5, 2012 5:30 PM CT

“Homeland,” Showtime’s series about an al-Qaeda sleeper agent in Congress, is both implausible and addictive. President Barack Obama is a fan. That means he has heard more discussion of the downside of drone strikes in a television drama than he has in the presidential race.

In the foreign-policy debate on Oct. 22, moderator Bob Schieffer of CBS asked Obama’s opponent, Mitt Romney, about the use of drones. Romney responded, “I support that entirely and feel the president was right to up the usage of that technology and believe that we should continue to use it to continue to go after the people who represent a threat to this nation and to our friends.”

This bouquet in hand, Obama didn’t even have to use the word “drone” when his turn came to speak.

Neither side wants to look softer than the other on terrorists. Hence the bipartisan support for the strikes. Liberal groups that might be inclined to protest the policy have been quiet because Obama put it in place. The lack of debate about our reliance on drones is a shame, because there are both practical and moral objections to it.

Bipartisan Worries

A few conservatives have raised one practical concern: Killing terrorists is justified, they say, but we need to kill fewer and capture more to gain intelligence. You don’t have to support waterboarding, as some of these critics do, to agree with that point.

Another concern, raised by a few liberals, is that the strikes have increased anti-Americanism abroad. (On “Homeland,” one of them turns an American soldier into a terrorist.) The Pew Research Center has found strong opposition to drone strikes in almost every country. The strikes may also be setting a dangerous precedent, goes another argument, since “more than 70 countries now own some type of drone.”

But the morality of the policy is what most deserves scrutiny. The tradition of thinking about wartime ethics holds that it is permissible to cause the death of innocent civilians under certain conditions: when the war itself is just, the deaths are unintended and the number of innocents killed is proportional to the good the military action is expected to achieve.

Attacks on terrorists from the air meet the first two criteria even if civilians get killed. Whether they meet the third is harder to determine, largely because we don’t have reliable numbers. In January, Obama said, “I want to make sure that people understand actually drones have not caused a huge number of civilian casualties.” A report by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism found hundreds of civilian casualties in Pakistan, including 176 children.

In May, the New York Times reported one possible explanation for the discrepancy in estimates: Obama “in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent.” In other words, Obama has not found much evidence of civilian casualties because he’s not looking for any. The Times also reported that former senior intelligence officials doubt the administration’s public line about low casualties.

The alternatives to drone strikes have costs. Ground operations would also cause civilian casualties and could put American troops at risk. Scaling back the drone strikes risks letting some terrorists go to plot more evil. But the costs of killing, injuring, endangering and terrifying civilians have to be entered into the equation.

Robert P. George, a professor of politics at Princeton University and a leading social conservative, argues that “considerations of justice to noncombatants” sometimes forbid drone strikes “even if that means grave risks must be endured by our own forces in the prosecution of a war.”

Rule of Thumb

If we wouldn’t be willing to expose our troops to those risks, then maybe the mission isn’t so compelling that it justifies exposing civilians to them either. That’s the conclusion that Kurt Volker, the head of the McCain Institute for International Leadership and a former ambassador, has reached. He writes that “a good rule of thumb might be that we should authorize drone strikes only if we would be willing to send in a pilot or soldier to do the job if a drone were not available.”

Rules of thumb are probably the best we can hope for on this question, since we need a policy that makes use of drone strikes while drawing the line when the risks to civilians become too high. The danger is that using them is so convenient for policy makers that we will use them too much.

The president’s aides told the Times that he is a “student of writings on war by Augustine and Thomas Aquinas” and can be trusted to make the right judgments. His practical definition of combatants as anyone we happened to kill suggests otherwise, although too much of the program is secret to say for sure. The fact that we have barely debated this issue makes it hard to believe that our political system is getting it right, either.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:28 PM   #61
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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They are in prison now.
Put them in a prison here. We don't need one in Cuba.

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Your argument is that you want to hold Obama accountable for any collateral deaths he causes by authorizing the drone kills, yes?
Absolutely.

At the very least, there needs to be a checks and balances system in place, along with some built-in mechanism established (should the civilian toll become even worse) that would halt the drone system or at least temporarily suspend it while we recalibrate how it is exactly we target who it is we're targeting.

Ideally, we'd just halt it altogether.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:28 PM   #62
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Drones kill 20 innocents for every 1 SUSPECTED terrorist, and if that suspected terrorist is akin to getting on the terror watch list or the no fly list that means we're killing a helluva lot of innocents with no regard for human life. **** DRONES!
Source?
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:30 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Put them in a prison here. We don't need one in Cuba.
Why would having the prisoners on the mainland stop the terrorists from recruiting?

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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Absolutely.

At the very least, there needs to be a checks and balances system in place, along with some built-in mechanism established (should the civilian toll become even worse) that would halt the drone system or at least temporarily suspend it while we recalibrate how it is exactly we target who it is we're targeting.

Ideally, we'd just halt it altogether.
How about non-drone collateral kills? Same thing?
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:31 PM   #64
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Source?
I've seen many throughout the years but here's one.

America's deadly double tap drone attacks are 'killing 49 people for every known terrorist in Pakistan'

Just one in 50 victims of America’s deadly drone strikes in Pakistan are terrorists – while the rest are innocent civilians, a new report claimed today.

The authoritative joint study, by Stanford and New York Universities, concludes that men, women and children are being terrorised by the operations ’24 hours-a-day’.

And the authors lay much of the blame on the use of the ‘double-tap’ strike where a drone fires one missile – and then a second as rescuers try to drag victims from the rubble. One aid agency said they had a six-hour delay before going to the scene.

The tactic has cast such a shadow of fear over strike zones that people often wait for hours before daring to visit the scene of an attack. Investigators also discovered that communities living in fear of the drones were suffering severe stress and related illnesses. Many parents had taken their children out of school because they were so afraid of a missile-strike.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2BTMlzk00
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:33 PM   #65
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Why would having the prisoners on the mainland stop the terrorists from recruiting?
Gitmo's a lightning rod that we do not need. Close it down.

Bring them mainland, treat them as criminals rather than warriors, get the legal process going.

That's how you defuse a once-popular draw of Islamist recruiting.

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How about non-drone collateral kills? Same thing?
The answer is "of course."

But I think we do have that in place, do we not? Do Congressional leaders not regularly confer with the commander-in-chief on wartime progress?
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:37 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Gitmo's a lightning rod that we do not need. Close it down.

Bring them mainland, treat them as criminals rather than warriors, get the legal process going.

That's how you defuse a once-popular draw of Islamist recruiting.
You're kidding, right? You can't actually think that because they are in a military prison not on our mainland is the reason why extremists hate us and that perhaps some nuts join extremist groups. You are far too bright to believe that.

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The answer is "of course."

But I think we do have that in place, do we not? Do Congressional leaders not regularly confer with the commander-in-chief on wartime progress?
Okay, that's fine. And what should "we" do to the POTUS when he accidentally wastes Lil Mohamed instead of his daddy? Impeachment? Accidents happen, you know.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:42 PM   #67
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You're kidding, right? You can't actually think that because they are in a military prison not on our mainland is the reason why extremists hate us and that perhaps some nuts join extremist groups.
Gitmo became a lightning rod to our enemies thanks to the torture we embraced there. Same with Abu Ghraib. We wisely shut down Abu Ghraib.

Gitmo is a lightning rod domestically because it's extralegal detention on foreign soil that we don't need.

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Okay, that's fine. And what should "we" do to the POTUS when he accidentally wastes Lil Mohamed instead of his daddy? Impeachment? Accidents happen, you know.
Agreed, and I'm not in favor of overreacting to earnest, diligently-researched assessments that happen to be wrong.

I am in favor of having mechanisms in law that trigger to automatically restrict the actions of the President in the event that he/she flies off the deep end and creates a cluster**** out of malice or negligence.

Politically unlikely? Yes, because both parties disagree with me.

But that's not what guides my point of view.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:45 PM   #68
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ya, bring them up here, give them rights like citizens, and make the cities targets...

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Old 11-06-2012, 12:46 PM   #69
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Well we wouldn't want the cities to be targets, now would we?

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Old 11-06-2012, 12:49 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Gitmo became a lightning rod to our enemies thanks to the torture we embraced there. Same with Abu Ghraib. We wisely shut down Abu Ghraib.

Gitmo is a lightning rod domestically because it's extralegal detention on foreign soil that we don't need.
I can see the "torture" aspect a little, but not the geography. That's just a silly argument, Direckshun.

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Agreed, and I'm not in favor of overreacting to earnest, diligently-researched assessments that happen to be wrong.

I am in favor of having mechanisms in law that trigger to automatically restrict the actions of the President in the event that he/she flies off the deep end and creates a cluster**** out of malice or negligence.

Politically unlikely? Yes, because both parties disagree with me.

But that's not what guides my point of view.
Well, we have one. It's called impeachment and removal from office. Also, if Obama goes nuts, and starts wasting people indiscriminately, I would think that congress would act (or our military would start refusing to follow his orders). Honestly, I don't believe that you are thinking clearly about this subject.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:51 PM   #71
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Well we wouldn't want the cities to be targets, now would we?

]
excellent point, they've already attacked a major city, what's a couple more?
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:42 PM   #72
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I can see the "torture" aspect a little, but not the geography. That's just a silly argument, Direckshun.
To be fair, I've really broached two subjects with that one. That's on me.

I think Gitmo should be closed, because of its geography.

I think it's a lightning rod for Islamist recruiting, because of its torture.

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Well, we have one. It's called impeachment and removal from office. Also, if Obama goes nuts, and starts wasting people indiscriminately, I would think that congress would act (or our military would start refusing to follow his orders).
That is an option, yes.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:31 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
To be fair, I've really broached two subjects with that one. That's on me.

I think Gitmo should be closed, because of its geography.

I think it's a lightning rod for Islamist recruiting, because of its torture.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:35 PM   #74
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Drones are very similar to the debate surrounding tools of non-deadly force being employed by law enforcement. They seem like a GREAT idea on the surface. As you start digging deeper, though, the implications are disturbing.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:50 PM   #75
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Drones are very similar to the debate surrounding tools of non-deadly force being employed by law enforcement. They seem like a GREAT idea on the surface. As you start digging deeper, though, the implications are disturbing.
Nonsense it's just like a video game. Herp Derp, I killed me some pixels!
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