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Old 11-13-2012, 09:54 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:43 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
The Palestinians could vote out Hamas.

But they're not going to do it for no reason. From their perspective, there is currently no reason.

Let's give them a reason.
They've had reason after reason after reason, but they're still loyal to Hamas.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:44 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Welp, the 2012 impending Gaza war was averted.

Anybody want to tell me what was gained by Israel during this episode?
Ahmed Jabari isn't wasting anyone's air anymore.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:47 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by ForeverChiefs58 View Post
Give them a reason?

Are you for real?

I thought they wanted statehood so bad?

If that isn't reason enough then **** em. They are lucky to have anything at all.

Most people that continue to start war and lose, don't get anything back, let alone so much. Israel still delivers aid, gives tax money to the PA, and helps the very people who are sworn to their distruckshun.

Of course the other side wouldn't do that, they drag people through the srteets for even being friendly to a jew.
Good synopsis. I especially agree with your conclusion that they are lucky to have anything at all.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:41 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
The Palestinians could vote out Hamas.

But they're not going to do it for no reason. From their perspective, there is currently no reason.

Let's give them a reason.
And Israel buckling to Hamas will give them a reason or make them want to vote them out?
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:50 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
And Israel buckling to Hamas will give them a reason or make them want to vote them out?
no, quite the contrary in fact...

hamas in all likelihood staged the whole affair to rekindle support among gazans and it has worked very well...

not negotiating in good faith after/if/when israel makes serious offers that address palestinian concerns is what would drive them out of office (so the theory goes)...

if a settlement is perceived as possible/likely, the majority of palestinians will vote for peace candidates...

but as long as it appears to be impossible, many of them will continue to support hamas as the only option available...

as counterintuitive as it may sound, israel may be better served by using a carrot in this situatioun...

after all, the stick hasn't produced peace in 60 years, why not try something else?
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:05 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
no, quite the contrary in fact...

hamas in all likelihood staged the whole affair to rekindle support among gazans and it has worked very well...

not negotiating in good faith after/if/when israel makes serious offers that address palestinian concerns is what would drive them out of office (so the theory goes)...

if a settlement is perceived as possible/likely, the majority of palestinians will vote for peace candidates...

but as long as it appears to be impossible, many of them will continue to support hamas as the only option available...

as counterintuitive as it may sound, israel may be better served by using a carrot in this situatioun...

after all, the stick hasn't produced peace in 60 years, why not try something else?
I don't buy it.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:09 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by ForeverChiefs58 View Post
Hamas still firing rockets. Yeah that lasted a long time. Meanwhile, Israel keeps showing restraint.

This isn't random. Hamas is wanting to get a response from Israel that kills their citizens. It is why they shoot from schools, mosques, hospitals, houses full of children etc. Even though the blame should fall at the feet of the palesinians, because this is what they want.

So when Israel does respond they can show pictures of people dead and so people feel sorry for them and agree to their demands. This is what they are trying to do before the upcoming vote.

Hopefully, it will backfire and turn against the terrorist supporting assholes.

I think if Israel wants the support of some of the more libral european countries they will hold off on an invasion.
EXACTLY!! You sir a smart man!
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:38 PM   #413
stevieray stevieray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverChiefs58 View Post
Hamas still firing rockets. Yeah that lasted a long time. Meanwhile, Israel keeps showing restraint.

This isn't random. Hamas is wanting to get a response from Israel that kills their citizens. It is why they shoot from schools, mosques, hospitals, houses full of children etc. Even though the blame should fall at the feet of the palesinians, because this is what they want.

So when Israel does respond they can show pictures of people dead and so people feel sorry for them and agree to their demands. This is what they are trying to do before the upcoming vote.

Hopefully, it will backfire and turn against the terrorist supporting assholes.

I think if Israel wants the support of some of the more libral european countries they will hold off on an invasion.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:35 PM   #414
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Britain's in.

Their hesitation was the threat of Mahmoud Abbas using the ICC against Israel.

Abbas has agreed not to bring Israel before the ICC. Therefore, Abbas lands Britain.

Britain will likely bring the rest of Europe with them.

The US and Israel have failed. November 29th is now basically a done deal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...tine-statehood

Britain ready to back Palestinian statehood at UN
Mahmoud Abbas pledge not to pursue Israel for war crimes and resumption of peace talks are UK conditions
Ian Black, Middle East editor
Monday 26 November 2012

Britain is prepared to back a key vote recognising Palestinian statehood at the United Nations if Mahmoud Abbas pledges not to pursue Israel for war crimes and to resume peace talks.

Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, has called for Britain's backing in part because of its historic responsibility for Palestine. The government has previously refused, citing strong US and Israeli objections and fears of long-term damage to prospects for negotiations.

On Monday night, the government signalled it would change tack and vote yes if the Palestinians modified their application, which is to be debated by the UN general assembly in New York later this week. As a "non-member state", Palestine would have the same status as the Vatican.

Whitehall officials said the Palestinians were now being asked to refrain from applying for membership of the international criminal court or the international court of justice, which could both be used to pursue war crimes charges or other legal claims against Israel.

Abbas is also being asked to commit to an immediate resumption of peace talks "without preconditions" with Israel. The third condition is that the general assembly's resolution does not require the UN security council to follow suit.

The US and Israel have both hinted at possible retaliation if the vote goes ahead. Congress could block payments to the Palestinian Authority and Israel might freeze tax revenues it transfers under the 1993 Oslo agreement or, worse, withdraw from the agreement altogether. It could also annex West Bank settlements. Britain's position is that it wants to reduce the risk that such threats might be implemented and bolster Palestinian moderates.

France has already signalled that it will vote yes on Thursday, and the long-awaited vote is certain to pass as 132 UN members have recognised the state of Palestine. Decisions by Germany, Spain and Britain are still pending and Palestinians would clearly prefer a united EU position as counterweight to the US.

Willian Hague, the foreign secretary, discussed the issue on Monday with Abbas and the French foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, offiicals said.

Palestinian sources said Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, raised the issue with Abbas at his Ramallah headquarters last week, shortly before a ceasefire was agreed in the Gaza Strip, as had Tony Blair, the Quartet envoy.

Abbas has been widely seen to have been sidelined by his rivals in the Islamist movement Hamas, as well by his failure to win any concessions from Israel. Abbas, whose remit does not extend beyond the West Bank, hopes a strong yes vote will persuade Israel to return to talks after more than two years.

Officals in Ramallah have opposed surrendering on the ICC issue so it can be used as a bargaining chip in future, but views are thought to be divided. Abbas said at the weekend: "We are going to the UN fully confident in our steps. We will have our rights because you are with us."

Leila Shaid, Palestine's representative to the EU, said: "After everything that has happened in the Arab spring, Britain can't pretend it is in favour of democracy in Libya, Syria and Egypt but accept the Palestinians continuing to live under occupation. As the former colonial power, Britain has a historic responsibility to Palestine. Britain is a very important country in the Middle East, it has extensive trade relations, and David Cameron should know he risks a popular backlash from Arab public opinion if he does not support us."

Palestinians have rejected the claim that they are acting unilaterally, calling the UN path "the ultimate expression of multilateralism". Israel's apparent opposition to unilateralism has not stopped it acting without agreement to build and expand settlements, they say.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:37 PM   #415
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So, this new "Palestinian" state will not include Gaza, right?
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:42 PM   #416
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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So, this new "Palestinian" state will not include Gaza, right?
I'm not entirely sure.

That's a grey area anyway. I mean, the UN will be recognizing the PA, not Hamas.

This is going to be really interesting, to see how Palestine will react to this. PA is making all the right diplomatic moves, for the most part. But Hamas has all the support on the ground, not the PA.

Hamas will have no direct say in what the PA does at the UN, but they could very well have grassroots influence on it.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:58 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'm not entirely sure.

That's a grey area anyway. I mean, the UN will be recognizing the PA, not Hamas.

This is going to be really interesting, to see how Palestine will react to this. PA is making all the right diplomatic moves, for the most part. But Hamas has all the support on the ground, not the PA.

Hamas will have no direct say in what the PA does at the UN, but they could very well have grassroots influence on it.
It seems to me that the right diplomatic move would be to negotiate in good faith with Israel and leash your militant dead-enders. The UN has no ability to grant the PA an independent state. Only Israel can do that (unless Egypt or Jordan or some other country wants to offer up some of their territory).
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:08 PM   #418
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Brits have lost all hope.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:13 PM   #419
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Brits have lost all hope.
America stands nearly alone, but Obama and Direckshun are at the gate.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:21 PM   #420
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It seems to me that the right diplomatic move would be to negotiate in good faith with Israel and leash your militant dead-enders.
That's fair and all, but it's quite clear that PA can't do that anymore, if it ever could.
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