November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

[Direckshun]

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

That's fair and all, but it's quite clear that PA can't do that anymore, if it ever could.

Then they should offer to work with the Israelis to do it.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by patteeu

Then they should offer to work with the Israelis to do it.

Israel should stop defanging them by stealing their land.

Tell me how Palestinians are going to rally behind an organization that does nothing when Israel steals their land.

The PA has been defanged in the eyes of most Palestinians, and Israel's settlement expansion is directly the reason why.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

Israel should stop defanging them by stealing their land.

Tell me how Palestinians are going to rally behind an organization that does nothing when Israel steals their land.

The PA has been defanged in the eyes of most Palestinians, and Israel's settlement expansion is directly the reason why.

The amount of land they have has nothing to do with their ability to keep their radicals under control. If you're saying that the PA isn't the legitimate representative of the palestinian people, I agree with that, which makes them poor partners for peace negotiations and the wrong people to which the UN should grant state status.

If it's not the PA, though, the palestinian people need to decide who can represent them and their statehood aspirations. If they're going to choose Hamas, it means they have no interest in a two state solution. If they want peace and a state of their own, they need to pick someone who will marginalize groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad because those groups are the obstacles to peace, not the Israelis or their settlements.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by patteeu

The amount of land they have has nothing to do with their ability to keep their radicals under control.

It absolutely does.

Originally Posted by patteeu

If it's not the PA, though, the palestinian people need to decide who can represent them and their statehood aspirations. If they're going to choose Hamas, it means they have no interest in a two state solution.

They do have interest in a two-state solution, but they have a more base interest in survival.

Right now, Palestinians believe that Israel wants to wipe them off the map or make them leave Israel.

Originally Posted by patteeu

If they want peace and a state of their own, they need to pick someone who will marginalize groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad because those groups are the obstacles to peace, not the Israelis or their settlements.

And what should Israel do? Nothing, I'm guessing.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

It absolutely does.

That's not very convincing. But it doesn't really matter, because there's no interest among palestinians to control their jihadists.

Originally Posted by Direckshun

They do have interest in a two-state solution, but they have a more base interest in survival.

Right now, Palestinians believe that Israel wants to wipe them off the map or make them leave Israel.

Israel has it's land and they have a degree of security now. They don't need a two state solution. It's a preference.

The palestinians have neither land nor security. Apparently their preference is for war because if they wanted a two state peace, they could certainly have one. To the extent that they've been convinced by radicals among them or manipulative outsiders that Israel wants to wipe them off the map (despite all of the evidence to the contrary), that's misguided and unfortunate, but it's not on Israel.

Originally Posted by Direckshun

And what should Israel do? Nothing, I'm guessing.

Israel should continue to seek peace as they've been doing for decades. They've already proven their bona fides through land-for-peace swaps with Egypt and Jordan and through generous land for peace offers to the palestinians like the one Yasser Arafat rejected in 2000. It's time for the palestinians to prove that they want peace by rejecting the death-to-Israel ideology of Hamas.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by patteeu

The palestinians have neither land nor security. Apparently their preference is for war because if they wanted a two state peace, they could certainly have one. To the extent that they've been convinced by radicals among them or manipulative outsiders that Israel wants to wipe them off the map (despite all of the evidence to the contrary), that's misguided and unfortunate, but it's not on Israel.

Put yourself in Palestinian shoes.

Your land is taken from you constantly. You are forcibly kept with 1.5 million of your brothers and sisters in a malnourished shanty town with no ability to make commerce with anybody in the outside world. You live in poverty, you've either been terrorized by Israelis or know others who have been, and many of your sisters and children are slain by Israeli attacks, retaliations and instigations alike.

You only see things from your Republican-colored glasses, where Israel can do no wrong. That's the only way you can come to assessments like the one I just bolded.

You don't see that Israel is becoming an apartheid state that is isolating itself from the planet diplomatically. And you don't see the historical proof of human history that oppression begets extremism.

You just expect elemental forces of humanity to undo themselves.

It's not going to happen. Israel is going to have to give, or Palestine will be wiped off the map, potentially taking Israel with it.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by patteeu

Israel should continue to seek peace as they've been doing for decades. They've already proven their bona fides through land-for-peace swaps with Egypt and Jordan and through generous land for peace offers to the palestinians like the one Yasser Arafat rejected in 2000. It's time for the palestinians to prove that they want peace by rejecting the death-to-Israel ideology of Hamas.

What should Israel be doing differently, pat?

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

Put yourself in Palestinian shoes.

Your land is taken from you constantly. You are forcibly kept with 1.5 million of your brothers and sisters in a malnourished shanty town with no ability to make commerce with anybody in the outside world. You live in poverty, you've either been terrorized by Israelis or know others who have been, and many of your sisters and children are slain by Israeli attacks, retaliations and instigations alike.

You only see things from your Republican-colored glasses, where Israel can do no wrong. That's the only way you can come to assessments like the one I just bolded.

You don't see that Israel is becoming an apartheid state that is isolating itself from the planet diplomatically. And you don't see the historical proof of human history that oppression begets extremism.

You just expect elemental forces of humanity to undo themselves.

It's not going to happen. Israel is going to have to give, or Palestine will be wiped off the map, potentially taking Israel with it.

I can definitely see how a palestinian might convince himself that he's the victim here. I have the luxury of being able to look at it more objectively though. It has nothing to do with Republican colored glasses.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

What should Israel be doing differently, pat?

They should probably have gone into Gaza and rooted out as much of Hamas as possible before agreeing to a cease fire.

[Oh Snap]

Originally Posted by patteeu

They're not in their backyard. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza. You can't possibly consider the entire territory of Israel to be the palestinians' backyard do you? Do you consider the state of Missouri to be unlawfully occupied American Indian territory?

Conditions inside the Gaza have never been worse then they are right now. Israel routinely limits aid to Gaza, and essentially has Gaza and the West Bank on 24/7 lock down. Israel has created a humanitarian crisis within Palestine. The Palestinians are doing exactly what anyone would be doing in their situation. (fighting back against Israeli aggression)

It seems no one here really understands the history behind the situation. The fact is, Israel created Hamas as a proxy to overthrow the Palestinian authority. This essentially happened, but Hamas turned on Israel as a result. So I don't even feel sorry for Israel in that regard.

And it was Israel who fired the first shots in the 1948 war where they basically committed genocide against Arab Palestinians in order to make their Zionist State. The Arabs have not forgotten Israels sins in the early days, and the War/conflict between the two states has essentially been ongoing since the late 1940's. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know the history. So either read up on it, or stfu about it!

[Oh Snap]

Originally Posted by patteeu

Then they should offer to work with the Israelis to do it.

The Palestinians have offered to return to negotiations with the Israelis under condition that Israel halt all of its settlement expansion into the Palestinian West Bank. Israel routinely ignores this plea, and basically tells the PA to omit to Israels demands that the PA recognize Israel as a state. No negotiation. Meanwhile, Israel continues to infringe upon PA land by expanding its illegal settlements in the West Bank. This does nothing for peace, as it further creates hate and animosity towards the Zionist state of Israel.

So long as Israel continues its barbaric treatment of the Palestinians, there will be no peace. Israel is essentially creating the instability (just as they did by creating Hamas) to create the current predicament it now faces. The US would do well to turn its back on this unstable state and avoid entangling alliances in the future.

[ForeverChiefs58]

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

Conditions inside the Gaza have never been worse then they are right now. Israel routinely limits aid to Gaza, and essentially has Gaza and the West Bank on 24/7 lock down. Israel has created a humanitarian crisis within Palestine. The Palestinians are doing exactly what anyone would be doing in their situation. (fighting back against Israeli aggression)

It seems no one here really understands the history behind the situation. The fact is, Israel created Hamas as a proxy to overthrow the Palestinian authority. This essentially happened, but Hamas turned on Israel as a result. So I don't even feel sorry for Israel in that regard.

And it was Israel who fired the first shots in the 1948 war where they basically committed genocide against Arab Palestinians in order to make their Zionist State. The Arabs have not forgotten Israels sins in the early days, and the War/conflict between the two states has essentially been ongoing since the late 1940's. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know the history. So either read up on it, or stfu about it!

Its just too bad you are so wrong.

[mnchiefsguy]

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

Conditions inside the Gaza have never been worse then they are right now. Israel routinely limits aid to Gaza, and essentially has Gaza and the West Bank on 24/7 lock down. Israel has created a humanitarian crisis within Palestine. The Palestinians are doing exactly what anyone would be doing in their situation. (fighting back against Israeli aggression)

It seems no one here really understands the history behind the situation. The fact is, Israel created Hamas as a proxy to overthrow the Palestinian authority. This essentially happened, but Hamas turned on Israel as a result. So I don't even feel sorry for Israel in that regard.

And it was Israel who fired the first shots in the 1948 war where they basically committed genocide against Arab Palestinians in order to make their Zionist State. The Arabs have not forgotten Israels sins in the early days, and the War/conflict between the two states has essentially been ongoing since the late 1940's. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know the history. So either read up on it, or stfu about it!

As I recall, only one side is advocating genocide of the other. Here is a hint: It is not Israel.

[ForeverChiefs58]

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

Conditions inside the Gaza have never been worse then they are right now. Israel routinely limits aid to Gaza, and essentially has Gaza and the West Bank on 24/7 lock down. Israel has created a humanitarian crisis within Palestine. The Palestinians are doing exactly what anyone would be doing in their situation. (fighting back against Israeli aggression)

It seems no one here really understands the history behind the situation. The fact is, Israel created Hamas as a proxy to overthrow the Palestinian authority. This essentially happened, but Hamas turned on Israel as a result. So I don't even feel sorry for Israel in that regard.

And it was Israel who fired the first shots in the 1948 war where they basically committed genocide against Arab Palestinians in order to make their Zionist State. The Arabs have not forgotten Israels sins in the early days, and the War/conflict between the two states has essentially been ongoing since the late 1940's. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know the history. So either read up on it, or stfu about it!

Great advice. Do you have any access to books not written by Hamas or other militant groups?

Try to find books that don't refer to the US as "The Great Satan"

I think that is the best place for you to start.

[Oh Snap]

Originally Posted by ForeverChiefs58

Its just too bad you are so wrong.

I'm sorry, I don't get my news from Fox. How exactly am I wrong?

Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy

As I recall, only one side is advocating genocide of the other. Here is a hint: It is not Israel.

"As I recall"... That is your problem. You are hardly qualified to give your opinion on this. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that Israel committed genocide against Palestinian arabs in 1948 and continues to commit genocide today through increased expansion into the West Bank.

Israel has created its own hell...and the crazy thing is, it has the US convinced that we somehow need to defend them. Israel is incredibly insignificant in all honesty. Our alliance with them is heavily one sided, and does more to hurt the US than it does to help.

Originally Posted by ForeverChiefs58

Great advice. Do you have any access to books not written by Hamas or other militant groups?

Try to find books that don't refer to the US as "The Great Satan"

I think that is the best place for you to start.

This is a typical knee jerk response by someone who doesn't know a thing about the discussion. The facts have already been outlined, feel free to make arguments against my post, not general ad hominems where you skirt the entire debate. Israel is far from the peaceful angel degenerates like you make it out to be.