November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

[Direckshun]

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

[stevieray]

Oh Snap, who built the Temple Mount?

..the Arabs in "palestine" are lucky Israel hasn't wiped them off the map.

[Oh Snap]

Originally Posted by stevieray

Oh Snap, who built the Temple Mount?

No one that is alive today.

..the Arabs in "palestine" are lucky Israel hasn't wiped them off the map.

They're trying to.

[stevieray]

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

No one that is alive today.

oooh boy, that settles it...sqautters must've done it.

how many thousands of rockets fired into Israel? this year alone?

[Oh Snap]

Originally Posted by stevieray

oooh boy, that settles it...sqautters must've done it.

how many thousands of rockets fired into Israel? this year alone?

I just knew I was bound to run into a bible thumper. Needless to say, your reasoning is completely void of any logic and rational.

And how many palestinians died and were displaced by Israel expansion into the West bank? How many people died as a result of Israeli airstrikes into heavily populated areas? When people are pushed, they tend to fight back. Those rockets (which are basically large home made fireworks, not missiles) pale in comparison to the damage an Israeli JDAM inflicts (thanks to the US).

[stevieray]

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

I just knew I was bound to run into a bible thumper. Needless to say, your reasoning is completely void of any logic and rational.

And how many palestinians died and were displaced by Israel expansion into the West bank? How many people died as a result of Israeli airstrikes into heavily populated areas? When people are pushed, they tend to fight back. Those rockets (which are basically large home made fireworks, not missiles) pale in comparison to the damage an Israeli JDAM inflicts (thanks to the US).

bible thumper? is that supposed to hurt?

...and I knew you were going to be intellectually dishonest. it's like talking to a child...always trying to blame someone else for their own actions.

those poor arabs, surrounded by billions of dollars, hiidng behind children, putting them in danger, BUT IT"S NOT THEIR FAULT.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

Conditions inside the Gaza have never been worse then they are right now. Israel routinely limits aid to Gaza, and essentially has Gaza and the West Bank on 24/7 lock down. Israel has created a humanitarian crisis within Palestine. The Palestinians are doing exactly what anyone would be doing in their situation. (fighting back against Israeli aggression)

Hamas and other palestinian militants created the humanitarian crisis in the territories. Before that, it was the neighboring Arab states who made sure that the refugee problem festered.

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

It seems no one here really understands the history behind the situation. The fact is, Israel created Hamas as a proxy to overthrow the Palestinian authority. This essentially happened, but Hamas turned on Israel as a result. So I don't even feel sorry for Israel in that regard.

You fit right in then. Israel didn't create Hamas.

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

And it was Israel who fired the first shots in the 1948 war where they basically committed genocide against Arab Palestinians in order to make their Zionist State. The Arabs have not forgotten Israels sins in the early days, and the War/conflict between the two states has essentially been ongoing since the late 1940's. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know the history. So either read up on it, or stfu about it!

No, Israel didn't start the 1948 war. Many palestinians were forced out of the newly created state of Israel and many more fled of their own accord. There was no genocide. You're about ignorant about this subject as my dog is about nuclear physics.

[mnchiefsguy]

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

I'm sorry, I don't get my news from Fox. How exactly am I wrong?



"As I recall"... That is your problem. You are hardly qualified to give your opinion on this. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that Israel committed genocide against Palestinian arabs in 1948 and continues to commit genocide today through increased expansion into the West Bank.

Israel has created its own hell...and the crazy thing is, it has the US convinced that we somehow need to defend them. Israel is incredibly insignificant in all honesty. Our alliance with them is heavily one sided, and does more to hurt the US than it does to help.



This is a typical knee jerk response by someone who doesn't know a thing about the discussion. The facts have already been outlined, feel free to make arguments against my post, not general ad hominems where you skirt the entire debate. Israel is far from the peaceful angel degenerates like you make it out to be.

Israel has no mention of genocide in its constitution. Hamas cannot say the same about it's charter.

Your entire post is full of stupid and fail.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

I'm sorry, I don't get my news from Fox. How exactly am I wrong?



"As I recall"... That is your problem. You are hardly qualified to give your opinion on this. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that Israel committed genocide against Palestinian arabs in 1948 and continues to commit genocide today through increased expansion into the West Bank.

Israel has created its own hell...and the crazy thing is, it has the US convinced that we somehow need to defend them. Israel is incredibly insignificant in all honesty. Our alliance with them is heavily one sided, and does more to hurt the US than it does to help.



This is a typical knee jerk response by someone who doesn't know a thing about the discussion. The facts have already been outlined, feel free to make arguments against my post, not general ad hominems where you skirt the entire debate. Israel is far from the peaceful angel degenerates like you make it out to be.

Genocide might be the right solution. It's about the only thing Israel hasn't tried (besides national suicide). I think Israel should give the palestinians a little more time to embrace civilization though.

Speaking of genocide, I take it you're upset that we prevented your folks from finishing the job back in the '40s.

[Oh Snap]

Originally Posted by stevieray

bible thumper? is that supposed to hurt?

No, but it does hurt your credibility when you try to insensate that it belongs to modern day Israel today; solemnly because it is in the same region where ancient Israel used to exist.

...and I knew you were going to be intellectually dishonest. it's like talking to a child...always trying to blame someone else for their own actions.

Cool story bro, but note the following; You didn't actually debate anything I said. You just interjected pointless, moot dribble that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.

those poor arabs, surrounded by billions of dollars, hiidng behind children, putting them in danger, BUT IT"S NOT THEIR FAULT.

I've never once condoned the actions of Hamas, nor the PA. However, I can't necessarily blame them given the current affairs between modern day Israel and Palestine.

Originally Posted by patteeu

Hamas and other palestinian militants created the humanitarian crisis in the territories. Before that, it was the neighboring Arab states who made sure that the refugee problem festered.

You fit right in then. Israel didn't create Hamas.

Yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about...How Israel Helped Create Hamas

No, Israel didn't start the 1948 war.

Oh yeah? Can you tell me what the 1947-1948 war was over?

Many palestinians were forced out of the newly created state of Israel and many more fled of their own accord. There was no genocide. You're about ignorant about this subject as my dog is about nuclear physics.

Says the man who believes in an imaginary being who floats around in the sky and grants wishes if you "just wish hard enough." You probably think that the world is 6,000 years old too, dont ya? I know your type well....

Here is an IDF vet who tells his tale of what happened and how the IDF committed genocide in Nakba around 1948.



Is he ignorant too since his claim is counter to yours?!?!

Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy

Israel has no mention of genocide in its constitution. Hamas cannot say the same about it's charter.

Your entire post is full of stupid and fail.

Yea, because words speak louder than actions since when?

Originally Posted by patteeu

Genocide might be the right solution. It's about the only thing Israel hasn't tried (besides national suicide). I think Israel should give the palestinians a little more time to embrace civilization though.

Speaking of genocide, I take it you're upset that we prevented your folks from finishing the job back in the '40s.

That was a bit uncalled for...

[ForeverChiefs58]

Here this is what you should have learned:

The Arabs made clear they would go to war to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state. The chairman of the Arab Higher Committee said the Arabs would “fight for every inch of their country.” Two days later, the holy men of Al-Azhar University in Cairo called on the Muslim world to proclaim a jihad (holy war) against the Jews. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee’s spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench “the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood..."

Husseini’s prediction began to come true almost immediately after the UN adopted the partition resolution on November 29, 1947. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. Violence continued to escalate through the end of the year.

The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approximately 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine. By February, the British said so many Arabs had infiltrated they lacked the forces to run them back.

In the first phase of the war, lasting from November 29, 1947, until April 1, 1948, the Palestinian Arabs took the offensive, with help from volunteers from neighboring countries. The Jews suffered severe casualties and passage along most of their major roadways was disrupted.

On April 26, 1948, Transjordan’s King Abdullah said:


All our efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem have failed. The only way left for us is war. I will have the pleasure and honor to save Palestine.

On May 4, 1948, the Arab Legion attacked Kfar Etzion. The defenders drove them back, but the Legion returned a week later. After two days, the ill-equipped and outnumbered settlers were overwhelmed. Many defenders were massacred after they had surrendered. This was prior to the invasion by the regular Arab armies that followed Israel’s declaration of independence.

The UN blamed the Arabs for the violence. The UN Palestine Commission, which was never permitted by the Arabs or British to go to Palestine to implement the resolution, reported to the Security Council on February 16, 1948, that “powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.”

The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948:


The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.

The British commander of Jordan’s Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb admitted:


Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman . . . ​They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine.

Despite the disadvantages in numbers, organization and weapons, the Jews began to take the initiative in the weeks from April 1 until the declaration of independence on May 14. The Haganah captured several major towns including Tiberias and Haifa, and temporarily opened the road to Jerusalem.

The partition resolution was never suspended or rescinded. Thus, Israel, the Jewish State in Palestine, was born on May 14, as the British finally left the country. Five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq) immediately invaded Israel. Their intentions were declared by Abd Al-Rahman Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League: “It will be a war of annihilation. It will be a momentous massacre in history that will be talked about like the massacres of the Mongols or the Crusades.”


The United States, the Soviet Union and most other states recognized Israel soon after it declared independence on May 14, 1948, and immediately condemned the Arabs for their aggression. The United States urged a resolution charging the Arabs with breach of the peace.

Soviet delegate Andrei Gromyko told the Security Council, May 29, 1948:


This is not the first time that the Arab states, which organized the invasion of Palestine, have ignored a decision of the Security Council or of the General Assembly. The USSR delegation deems it essential that the council should state its opinion more clearly and more firmly with regard to this attitude of the Arab states toward decisions of the Security Council.

On July 15, the Security Council threatened to cite the Arab governments for aggression under the UN Charter. By this time, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) had succeeded in stopping the Arab offensive and the initial phase of the fighting ended.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...s3/MF1948.html

[ForeverChiefs58]

Learn more

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...onflict_2.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...nutshell3.html

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

Yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about...How Israel Helped Create Hamas

First you said "Israel created Hamas". Now you're saying "Israel helped create Hamas". Pretty soon you'll be saying, "Well, technically, they didn't create Hamas, but they used them as a counter to the PLO which had the effect of increasing their stature." It's just a dumb concept from the start. That kind of braindead leap of logic will lead to future Snaps saying that Israel created Fatah (who Israel didn't create but who they helped in an effort to undermine more militant groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad). It's the same kind of stupidity that leads people to say that we created al Qaeda or Saddam Hussein.

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

Oh yeah? Can you tell me what the 1947-1948 war was over?

Yes, but since ForeverChiefs58 already covered it, I'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

Says the man who believes in an imaginary being who floats around in the sky and grants wishes if you "just wish hard enough." You probably think that the world is 6,000 years old too, dont ya? I know your type well....

You're a huge joke. You're as wrong here as you've been about everything else.

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

Here is an IDF vet who tells his tale of what happened and how the IDF committed genocide in Nakba around 1948.

Is he ignorant too since his claim is counter to yours?!?!

His claim isn't counter to mine. It lines up perfectly with it. Did you even watch that video? What he's describing is the displacement of the palestinian population, not their extermination. I would think that a guy sporting the flag in your avatar would know what the word "genocide" means.

BTW, "Nakba" was an event, not a place.

Originally Posted by Oh Snap

That was a bit uncalled for...

Uncalled for, or untrue?

[Direckshun]

I don't know about the whole creation business, but Israel embraces policy that actively empowers Hamas amongst their own people.

If you want to get Hamas out of the way, you must embrace policy that gets them out of the way.

All Netanyahu's done is empower them.

[mnchiefsguy]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

I don't know about the whole creation business, but Israel embraces policy that actively empowers Hamas amongst their own people.

If you want to get Hamas out of the way, you must embrace policy that gets them out of the way.

All Netanyahu's done is empower them.

Yeah, because defending your nation against a terrorist group that targets women and child is such a horrible policy.

Do you really think Hamas would stop launching rockets if Israel did a 180 on their current policies?

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy

Yeah, because defending your nation against a terrorist group that targets women and child is such a horrible policy.

I don't know how this is a response to my post.