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Old 12-14-2012, 01:26 PM  
jAZ jAZ is offline
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Mental Illness

Some of you may know that I was personally fairly close to Gabby Giffords. I also have a son sitting in a kindergarten class right now. I'm also known as an outspoken liberal on this board.

I have opinions about gun control policies, but I don't see that as the critical issue that links these issues. I agree that guns don't kill people, people kill people.

We as a nation need to have a grown up discussion about our culture. But I think we are missing the issue if we talk about gun control.

We need to talk about these incidents as a function of all sorts of factors, key of which are mental health.

A couple of years ago, I think my son was 3 years old and we were at a video arcade, he wanted to play one of the gun games. Something clicked for me when he asked about that.

I realized that we have created a culture of murder and killing as a form of entertainment. I realized that somehow we as a society have embraced murder as a game or entertainment. And for some reason, rape sits squrely on the other side of the line of acceptability.

We don't make movies or video games that glorify rape. That crosses a universally unacceptable like that somehow murder doesn't cross.

When I realized this contradiction in our social make up, I made a choice that I was not going to allow my son to engage in games that treat violence as a game. I started to teaching him that guns are dangerous machines should be treated with extraordinary care. And that they can but used in a lot of ways including for violence. That they aren't toys. We agreed that he wouldn't play video games that treat killing as a game. But in return, when he is old enough, we would go learn how to operate a gun and that he'd get to experience shooting a gun in a responsible way.

I say all of this because I think there is a 3rd way to have this discussion. We can protect gun rights. We can talk about our culture. We need to discuss the role of mental illness in these incidents.

It doesn't have to be a dumbed down discussion where one side focuses exclusively on banning guns and the other side focuses on expanding access to guns.

This is a multidimensional issue that demands a grown up discussion.

I guess this is my opportunity to share my thoughts in hope that it's a contribution to that effort.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:58 PM   #31
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Video games are not the issue. The systemic failures in our mental health care treatment are.

Psychologists and psychiatrists should be working together in an integrated type of treatment. Currently the gaps in the style and availibility of mental health care do a huge disservice to our country.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:15 PM   #32
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You don't know what the **** you are talking about. The drugs are not the problem. The fractured mess that is our mental health care system is the issue.
They were all on psychotropics, coincidence? Even your idol Michael Moore acknowledged the connection. For a guy who acts so friggen smart you bring less substance and civility to the table than just about anyone. I know these things bring out the worst in many of us but you are like this all the time. You are obviously a very miserable person but I am not responsible for that. I hope you have a better night, I'm checking out. The civility is at a all-time low tonight.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:23 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY View Post
They were all on psychotropics, coincidence? Even your idol Michael Moore acknowledged the connection. For a guy who acts so friggen smart you bring less substance and civility to the table than just about anyone. I know these things bring out the worst in many of us but you are like this all the time. You are obviously a very miserable person but I am not responsible for that. I hope you have a better night, I'm checking out. The civility is at a all-time low tonight.
**** civility. It's annoying when ****ing rubes like you who don't understand math, scientific studies, or just about anything else use shit like this to push your fringe viewpoints.

The medicines are not the problem. The medicines don't fix underlying issues. They address the medical conditions of depression or other mental disorders. Giving someone a pill doesn't cure them or turn them into monsters.

If someone is legimately depressed and suicidal/homocidal, they are usually so depressed they don't take action on their ****ed up thoughts. After they start taking medicines without getting treatment for their underlying issues is when the problems arise. They start to have more energy. They finally have motivation to act on their thoughts so they do. The drugs aren't the problem. The travesty that we call mental health care in our country is.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:25 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY View Post
They were all on psychotropics, coincidence? Even your idol Michael Moore acknowledged the connection. For a guy who acts so friggen smart you bring less substance and civility to the table than just about anyone. I know these things bring out the worst in many of us but you are like this all the time. You are obviously a very miserable person but I am not responsible for that. I hope you have a better night, I'm checking out. The civility is at a all-time low tonight.
Heh, many doctors acknowledge the connection and my next door neighbor who is a pharmacist does too. He thinks those drugs are bad.

And yes, KC Native needs help...anger management or some sedatives.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:27 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by KC native View Post
**** civility. It's annoying when ****ing rubes like you who don't understand math, scientific studies, or just about anything else use shit like this to push your fringe viewpoints.

The medicines are not the problem. The medicines don't fix underlying issues. They address the medical conditions of depression or other mental disorders. Giving someone a pill doesn't cure them or turn them into monsters.

If someone is legimately depressed and suicidal/homocidal, they are usually so depressed they don't take action on their ****ed up thoughts. After they start taking medicines without getting treatment for their underlying issues is when the problems arise. They start to have more energy. They finally have motivation to act on their thoughts so they do. The drugs aren't the problem. The travesty that we call mental health care in our country is.
you're a smart guy. you know this is a combination of moves designed for purposes unrelated to individual & social health.

during the prohibition, our streets were turned into a shooting gallery for law enforcement. deja vu. the middle east is an environment designed for urban warfare trainees in spades. Those young men are coming home to take over our streets using the tactics they learned. this is nothing more than a methodical military takeover of a nation.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:33 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Heh, many doctors acknowledge the connection and my next door neighbor who is a pharmacist does too. He thinks those drugs are bad.

And yes, KC Native needs help...anger management or some sedatives.
Hey dumb bitch, the malls are full.

Your anecdotes don't mean shit. A pharmacist doesn't know shit about mental health care. He dispenses drugs.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:34 PM   #37
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Maybe it's time to start protecting society from broken people.
Kill the hobos first.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:35 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by jAZ View Post
A couple of years ago, I think my son was 3 years old and we were at a video arcade, he wanted to play one of the gun games. Something clicked for me when he asked about that.

I realized that we have created a culture of murder and killing as a form of entertainment. I realized that somehow we as a society have embraced murder as a game or entertainment. And for some reason, rape sits squrely on the other side of the line of acceptability.

We don't make movies or video games that glorify rape. That crosses a universally unacceptable like that somehow murder doesn't cross.

When I realized this contradiction in our social make up, I made a choice that I was not going to allow my son to engage in games that treat violence as a game. I started to teaching him that guns are dangerous machines should be treated with extraordinary care. And that they can but used in a lot of ways including for violence. That they aren't toys. We agreed that he wouldn't play video games that treat killing as a game. But in return, when he is old enough, we would go learn how to operate a gun and that he'd get to experience shooting a gun in a responsible way.
.
Same thing with my son. We didn't allow him to play FPS video games until he was in middle school. We just thought elementary kids don;t need to be killing people for fun in a video game.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:37 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Lou_Zare View Post
you're a smart guy. you know this is a combination of moves designed for purposes unrelated to individual & social health.

during the prohibition, our streets were turned into a shooting gallery for law enforcement. deja vu. the middle east is an environment designed for urban warfare trainees in spades. Those young men are coming home to take over our streets using the tactics they learned. this is nothing more than a methodical military takeover of a nation.
Ah yes. You forgot to mention where they put tracking chips in everyone.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:39 PM   #40
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Ah yes. You forgot to mention where they put tracking chips in everyone.
it's in your pocket.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:40 PM   #41
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Also, there were some mentions in articles I read that this guy had a personality disorder.

A good portion of personality disorders have no cures or ability to work through them. Those people are broken and every effort should be made to keep weapons out of their hands.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:52 PM   #42
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Also, there were some mentions in articles I read that this guy had a personality disorder.

A good portion of personality disorders have no cures or ability to work through them. Those people are broken and every effort should be made to keep weapons out of their hands.
we used to have a mental health system designed to eval & facilitate those deemed a social threat. those days are long gone and now the system is designed to create the kind of emotional response we see now -- folks killing sick folks in the name of the law.

someday soon, the lines will blur to the point where eugenicide is an acceptable means to an imaginary end, the excepted norm.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:06 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by jAZ View Post
When I realized this contradiction in our social make up, I made a choice that I was not going to allow my son to engage in games that treat violence as a game. I started to teaching him that guns are dangerous machines should be treated with extraordinary care. And that they can but used in a lot of ways including for violence. That they aren't toys. We agreed that he wouldn't play video games that treat killing as a game. But in return, when he is old enough, we would go learn how to operate a gun and that he'd get to experience shooting a gun in a responsible way.
.
You just described exactly how I was raised, and that is how we are raising our kids.

When I was young I pointed a toy gun at my brother. My dad made it crystal clear that you never, under any circumstance, whether it is real or fake, point a gun at a person. At a young age that taught me to respect guns.

Alright, I am back out of DC again. I just wanted to pat you on the back and tell you ,"Good job, and keep up the good work".
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:14 PM   #44
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I played "guns" with my friends all the time as a kid, haven't so much as held one in 25 years of being an adult. I don't see the correlation.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:18 PM
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:26 PM   #45
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I think maybe it's more to do with people realizing it can be done. I'm not sure that people thought of a mass shooting as something they could do, and the more frequent nature of it happening makes them think, "I could do that. If I did it this is what I'd do differently."

I do think there's a certain lack of respect for other people. I think of it more in terms of people posting youtube videos of people getting beat up, hit by cars, getting seriously injured, etc. I would be much more concerned if I found out my kid was watching videos of someone being actually injured than I would be if he was playing a first person shooter.
I totally agree with you about the lack of respect I think that is a huge issue in this day and age.

I will add I am not one to decry video games, rock music etc as bad influences but at the same time I am starting to come around to the thinking that maybe some of these games are desensitizing to people because they are so realistic in nature.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:03 PM
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