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Old 12-16-2012, 10:35 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Let's research gun violence.

I've said this in a couple other threads, but I don't believe that gun control is going to get any traction in Congress. Some Democrats will push for it, some other Republicans will table it, some pro-gun control folks like myself will cry foul, and yet another Congress will pass without any gun control measures seeing the light of day.

But here's one thing that maybe we can start doing: better educate ourselves on gun violence, so we can stop stabbing in the dark as to what we can better do to mitigate it.

The problem is that for a couple decades now, the government has not been able to produce any information on gun violence because the NRA has been threatening war if Congress failed to choke off all funding for gun-related research.

The CDC and NIH used to conduct research for decades, but around the time of the late 90s, the NRA became so powerful it was able to prevent these agencies from granting funds to researchers on those topics. McClatchy DC:

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The CDC and NIH award billions in grants. They fund research into cancer, brain injury, tobacco use, obesity, AIDS, abortion, hearing loss, allergies, infectious diseases, back pain and virtually everything else related to human health. But gun violence is the one area that carries that specific language. The effect has been to limit federal funding into research that could be used to shape policy.
This is irresponsible. We pass hundreds of gun-related laws across the country every few years. Like all laws, we should be able to research the impact of the laws we pass, so we can make decisions based on more than pure ideology.

Anyway, there's a ton of stories on this, but here's a really good one from last year in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us...anted=all&_r=0

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
By MICHAEL LUO
Published: January 25, 2011

In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”

The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.

The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.

Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.

“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.

In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.

“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.

In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.

“For policy to be effective, it needs to be based on evidence,” said Dr. Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis, who had his C.D.C. financing cut in 1996. “The National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress have largely succeeded in choking off the development of evidence upon which that policy could be based.”

Private foundations initially stepped into the breach, but their attention tends to wax and wane, researchers said. They are also much more interested in work that leads to immediate results and less willing to finance basic epidemiological research that scientists say is necessary to establishing a foundation of knowledge about the connection between guns and violence, or the lack thereof.

The National Institute of Justice, part of the Justice Department, also used to finance firearms research, researchers said, but that money has also petered out in recent years. (Institute officials said they hoped to reinvigorate financing in this area.)

Stephen Teret, founding director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, estimated that the amount of money available for firearms research was a quarter of what it used to be. With so much uncertainty about financing, Mr. Teret said, the circle of academics who study the phenomenon has fallen off significantly.

After the centers’ clash with the N.R.A., Mr. Teret said he was asked by C.D.C. officials to “curtail some things I was saying about guns and gun policy.”

Mr. Teret objected, saying his public comments about gun policy did not come while he was on the “C.D.C. meter.” After he threatened to file a lawsuit against the agency, Mr. Teret said, the officials backed down and gave him “a little bit more leeway.”

C.D.C. financing for research on gun violence has not stopped completely, but it is now mostly limited to work in which firearms are only a component.

The centers also ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the N.R.A. as a courtesy, said Thomas Skinner, a spokesman for the centers.

Invariably, researchers said, whenever their work touches upon firearms, the C.D.C. becomes squeamish. In the end, they said, it is often simply easier to avoid the topic if they want to continue to be in the agency’s good graces.

Dr. Stephen Hargarten, professor and chairman of emergency medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, used to direct a research center, financed by the C.D.C., that focused on gun violence, but he said he had now shifted his attention to other issues.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:25 PM   #151
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You've been waiting all night for this.

Was it good for you?

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Old 12-17-2012, 09:26 PM   #152
mr. tegu mr. tegu is offline
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because his liberal brainwashed wife wouldn't sign off on it
Why is it that someone who doesn't agree with you is automatically brainwashed?
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:28 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by mr. tegu View Post
Why is it that someone who doesn't agree with you is automatically brainwashed?
Well, not on everything. I hate onions, for example, but I don't think people who like them are brainwashed. I just think that they better not put any in my food.

This is a little more important than that.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:33 PM   #154
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There are so many ways to skirt the 2nd Amendment. Seriously, I know you're not this dumb. Bans on certain types of weapons. Bans on ammo. Restrictions on where you can and can't have your gun. Of course, the bad guys don't care about any of this.

Move to New York City and try to buy a RIFLE - not an "assault" rifle, but just a regular old hunting rifle - and see what kind of crap you have to go through to get one. Delaying tactics like background checks filing out applications with no assurance that it will ever be reviewed or approved, for whatever reason, exorbitant (and nonrefundable) fees, they've got it covered. One of my best friends couldn't get a gun in New York City because his liberal brainwashed wife wouldn't sign off on it - in NYC, every adult in the domicile must sign off on a person buying a gun. Just one more way for Bloomberg to wipe his ass with the constitution.

Imagine having to get someone else's permission in the household before you were allowed to speak you mind in public, then waiting six months for a background check and your application to clear. Maybe. But you don't get your fee back one way or another.

Rights are rights. Except when scumbag politicians deny them and get away with it.
I understand where you are coming from, it is similar to pro-life states making it harder and harder for women to have abortions. Look at the new Mississippi law for example.

Also I don't agree with all of those restrictions and for the moment you have the SC on your side. But in Bloombergs defense, NYC is pretty safe place to live for a big city so they must be doing something right.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:35 PM   #155
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I love how anti gun nuts talk shit on message boards.
They want to take our guns. But none of the cock gobblers would ever be man enough to do the taking.
Limp wristed gun confiscation tactics ftl!
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:36 PM   #156
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Well, not on everything. I hate onions, for example, but I don't think people who like them are brainwashed. I just think that they better not put any in my food.

This is a little more important than that.
Haha. Well it seems in the example you gave it is possible that the wife may just not be comfortable having a gun in her house for much more simpler reasons. That is a valid personal concern regardless of a person's societal views. Kind of like pro-choice people who would never actually take the choice option for themselves. Is that a fair statement?
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:38 PM   #157
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I understand where you are coming from, it is similar to pro-life states making it harder and harder for women to have abortions. Look at the new Mississippi law for example.

Also I don't agree with all of those restrictions and for the moment you have the SC on your side. But in Bloombergs defense, NYC is pretty safe place to live for a big city so they must be doing something right.
Well, sure. The parts the tourists see. Same with Chicago. Of course, I lived in some of those parts that you don't see on TV. And the last thing I felt when I lived on those places was safe.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:44 PM   #158
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Haha. Well it seems in the example you gave it is possible that the wife may just not be comfortable having a gun in her house for much more simpler reasons. That is a valid personal concern regardless of a person's societal views. Kind of like pro-choice people who would never actually take the choice option for themselves. Is that a fair statement?
I don't know where you live, but I work in Chicago and I am confronted daily with the assimilated. You tell these people that you own guns and they automatically assume that you're Charles ****ing Manson. YOU OWN A GUN???? BUT WHY??? ARE YOU A CRIMINAL OR SOMETHING?? Seriously, I've had otherwise sane people say that to me.

My friend is a veteran. He is the most hard-working, responsible person I know. He is also skilled marksman - he hadn't fired a gun since we qualified for our marksman medals 25 years ago and he nearly shot as well I me when we went to the range recently. There is NO logical reason, none whatsoever, for him not to be able to own a gun. None. Certainly not the unreasonable fears of an indoctrinated woman.

The good news - they're moving to Florida this month. He's getting a gun whether she likes it or not.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:47 PM   #159
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Oh, and I don't give a **** about abortion. Personally, I think it's wrong, but if somebody else wants to do it, it's not my business. And I hardly see the comparison between the two. It's not like some abortion doctor's going to break into a woman's house in the middle of the night with a clothes hanger.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:53 PM   #160
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I don't know where you live, but I work in Chicago and I am confronted daily with the assimilated. You tell these people that you own guns and they automatically assume that you're Charles ****ing Manson. YOU OWN A GUN???? BUT WHY??? ARE YOU A CRIMINAL OR SOMETHING?? Seriously, I've had otherwise sane people say that to me.

My friend is a veteran. He is the most hard-working, responsible person I know. He is also skilled marksman - he hadn't fired a gun since we qualified for our marksman medals 25 years ago and he nearly shot as well I me when we went to the range recently. There is NO logical reason, none whatsoever, for him not to be able to own a gun. None. Certainly not the unreasonable fears of an indoctrinated woman.

The good news - they're moving to Florida this month. He's getting a gun whether she likes it or not.
So you get stereotyped by anti gun people. But is that really all that different than you also stereotyping them though? Are there people that can't form their own opinions though? Of course. But it just seems to me that regardless of the issue, attributing the characteristics of some to the all is not going to get anyone anywhere. Not wanting a gun in the house doesn't mean indoctrinated to me. (speaking in general terms now because I don't know the specifics about your friend's wife).

Btw, does your friend know that you don't think there is any logical reason for him to be able to own a gun?
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:58 PM   #161
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So you get stereotyped by anti gun people. But is that really all that different than you also stereotyping them though? Are there people that can't form their own opinions though? Of course. But it just seems to me that regardless of the issue, attributing the characteristics of some to the all is not going to get anyone anywhere. Not wanting a gun in the house doesn't mean indoctrinated to me. (speaking in general terms now because I don't know the specifics about your friend's wife).

Btw, does your friend know that you don't think there is any logical reason for him to be able to own a gun?
I fixed the typo before you quoted me. Sorry!
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:04 PM   #162
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Oh, and I don't give a **** about abortion. Personally, I think it's wrong, but if somebody else wants to do it, it's not my business. And I hardly see the comparison between the two. It's not like some abortion doctor's going to break into a woman's house in the middle of the night with a clothes hanger.
I see the comparison in the sense that people can have differing opinions than others but they are able to refrain from forcing their opinions and attributing their dislike of the behavior to the other person at a personal level as a measure of that person's intelligence.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:06 PM   #163
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I fixed the typo before you quoted me. Sorry!
LOL! It was in my quote! I guess it changes as long you change it before my post goes through.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:11 PM   #164
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I see the comparison in the sense that people can have differing opinions than others but they are able to refrain from forcing their opinions and attributing their dislike of the behavior to the other person at a personal level as a measure of that person's intelligence.
Abortions have no bearing on my right to defend myself or your right to defend yourself.

I'm not going to tell you how to live your life - if you don't want a gun, don't ****ing get one. Simple. I don't know you, so your life and well being aren't my concern. I also won't be robbing your house or stealing your car at gunpoint, so again, you not being armed isn't my business.

But conversely, don't try to tell me that I can't have one.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:16 PM   #165
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And Direckshun pulls this old LIE out of his playbook.

The premise that the CDC is somehow prevented from doing research into gun violence is complete and total bullshit.

This is based on the complaints from leftists like Direckshun who don't like the fact that there is a law in place which prevents the CDC from funding studies that are solely purposed to advocate gun control.

People like him conveniently ignore the fact that the CDC DOES gun violence research all the time... they just don't like that it isn't the propaganda they expect.

Click this link and see for yourself.
http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html

And for those who missed it, here is the law that has Direckshun all hot and bothered...

So, basically, he wants YOUR money to be used to promote HIS agenda.
This has been widely reported (check the OP), it's not something I've invented out of thin air. You're claiming there's a conspiracy afoot.

The problem is that the NRA has snuffed out tons of research, not just research that would ostensibly promote gun control. The NRA has demanded that be interpreted as anything that would reveal information that would be remotely beneficial to gun control policy.
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