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Old 12-16-2012, 11:35 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Let's research gun violence.

I've said this in a couple other threads, but I don't believe that gun control is going to get any traction in Congress. Some Democrats will push for it, some other Republicans will table it, some pro-gun control folks like myself will cry foul, and yet another Congress will pass without any gun control measures seeing the light of day.

But here's one thing that maybe we can start doing: better educate ourselves on gun violence, so we can stop stabbing in the dark as to what we can better do to mitigate it.

The problem is that for a couple decades now, the government has not been able to produce any information on gun violence because the NRA has been threatening war if Congress failed to choke off all funding for gun-related research.

The CDC and NIH used to conduct research for decades, but around the time of the late 90s, the NRA became so powerful it was able to prevent these agencies from granting funds to researchers on those topics. McClatchy DC:

Quote:
The CDC and NIH award billions in grants. They fund research into cancer, brain injury, tobacco use, obesity, AIDS, abortion, hearing loss, allergies, infectious diseases, back pain and virtually everything else related to human health. But gun violence is the one area that carries that specific language. The effect has been to limit federal funding into research that could be used to shape policy.
This is irresponsible. We pass hundreds of gun-related laws across the country every few years. Like all laws, we should be able to research the impact of the laws we pass, so we can make decisions based on more than pure ideology.

Anyway, there's a ton of stories on this, but here's a really good one from last year in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us...anted=all&_r=0

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
By MICHAEL LUO
Published: January 25, 2011

In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”

The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.

The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.

Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.

“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.

In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.

“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.

In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.

“For policy to be effective, it needs to be based on evidence,” said Dr. Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis, who had his C.D.C. financing cut in 1996. “The National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress have largely succeeded in choking off the development of evidence upon which that policy could be based.”

Private foundations initially stepped into the breach, but their attention tends to wax and wane, researchers said. They are also much more interested in work that leads to immediate results and less willing to finance basic epidemiological research that scientists say is necessary to establishing a foundation of knowledge about the connection between guns and violence, or the lack thereof.

The National Institute of Justice, part of the Justice Department, also used to finance firearms research, researchers said, but that money has also petered out in recent years. (Institute officials said they hoped to reinvigorate financing in this area.)

Stephen Teret, founding director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, estimated that the amount of money available for firearms research was a quarter of what it used to be. With so much uncertainty about financing, Mr. Teret said, the circle of academics who study the phenomenon has fallen off significantly.

After the centers’ clash with the N.R.A., Mr. Teret said he was asked by C.D.C. officials to “curtail some things I was saying about guns and gun policy.”

Mr. Teret objected, saying his public comments about gun policy did not come while he was on the “C.D.C. meter.” After he threatened to file a lawsuit against the agency, Mr. Teret said, the officials backed down and gave him “a little bit more leeway.”

C.D.C. financing for research on gun violence has not stopped completely, but it is now mostly limited to work in which firearms are only a component.

The centers also ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the N.R.A. as a courtesy, said Thomas Skinner, a spokesman for the centers.

Invariably, researchers said, whenever their work touches upon firearms, the C.D.C. becomes squeamish. In the end, they said, it is often simply easier to avoid the topic if they want to continue to be in the agency’s good graces.

Dr. Stephen Hargarten, professor and chairman of emergency medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, used to direct a research center, financed by the C.D.C., that focused on gun violence, but he said he had now shifted his attention to other issues.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:22 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I would say this fits that definition.
That's crazy. I think you should get checked out before you go on a killing spree.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:22 AM   #242
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How many cartridges does the average magazine hold? -- would be how to word the question.

That is impossible to answer. Handguns, rifles, shotguns, and myriad examples in the subset all use different styles of magazines. The size of the cartridge will impact how many can be held in a magazine.

I suspect the most common handgun owned in America is the Glock 19. It holds 15 rounds. Many handguns do the same. Some hold more, some hold less. The highest capacity, flush-fitting magazine that I am aware of holds 20.

Rifles will generally hold anywhere between 4 and 30.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:24 AM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv View Post
With the way people were talking to me like I was totally crazy instead of partially ignorant threw up a red flag...lol.

How many rounds can be shot in a row with a semi-automatic? Let me see if I can word a halfway intelligent sounding question.... How many casings are in the average magazine? (Would that be the right question? lol)
Loaded question.



Seriously though, that varies so much from one weapon to the next there is no real “average” that I know of.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:42 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by luv View Post
Well, even those who are pro guns have used the terms "law abiding citizen". That rules out illegal aliens, a well as felons. I would think that requiring a certificate of completion of a safety and usage course would rule out anyone who doesn't have the proper understanding (intelligence?) of handling a gun. I believe there's already a minimum age set? Otherwise, as mentioned, it is mentioned in the Bill of Rights that people have the right to bear arms, so I don't think there should be anymore stipulations than those.

I have just heard over and over about how some places require this, that, and the other, while other places don't. I don't think sellers should be held responsible for the misuse of a gun they sold, unless it is proven that they did not do the proper background checks or require the proper certification or proof of age and citizenship. They can't read the minds of people buying guns, but they can do what they can by following the regulations of making sure the people they are selling to are eligible for ownership. Will it stop senseless shootings? No. But if they might help even a little, then I'm all for these regulations being enforced.

As for banishing certain types of guns, I'm for that. I don't think the average "law abiding" citizen needs a semi-automatic in order to protect themselves, to hunt, or for sport.

I've been told that I fall more to the right on this subject, and I'm fine with that. I just didn't know where my thoughts placed me on the political fence.
That's much better. Let me probe a little bit more. You say you could support the idea of requiring a safety/usage course to make sure a person is intelligent enough to own a gun. That seems like a reasonable (or at least an arguably reasonable) position. Some people think there ought to be a basic intelligence test required before a citizen is allowed to vote. Both gun ownership and voting are rights. Do you think testing for a basic level of intelligence should be allowed in both cases?

I think the line you draw that outlaws semi-automatic weapons is left of the current center in our country, but there are certainly large groups of people to the left of you such as those who want to ban handguns altogether.

I would say that you're left of center, but pretty moderate when it comes to guns. And that might be colored by the fact that I live in the rural midwest. If I lived in a deep blue state, I might think you were a right of center moderate.

Edit: luv meant "automatic" when she said "semi-automatic" in the quoted post.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:45 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv View Post
The way people were talking to me like I was totally crazy instead of partially ignorant threw up a red flag...lol.

How many rounds can be shot in a row with a semi-automatic? Let me see if I can word a halfway intelligent sounding question.... How many casings are in the average magazine? (Would that be the right question? lol)
As I said before, one trigger pull/one round. So you can fire as fast as you can pull the trigger. Capacity depends on the magazine size. AR15s typically have 30 round magazines, although they also come in 10 or 20. There are also some extremely high capacity magazines, but they are bulky, heavy, and from what I've heard have jamming issues. This is also basically true of AKs. Personally have 30 and 20 round magazines for my AR and 30 round magazines for my AK.

As for pistols, it varies widely. Pistols can be designed to take either single stack or double stack magazines. Both of my pistols are double stacks, so they have wider grips to accommodate the wider magazines. My .40 caliber pistol takes a 13 round magazine, while my 9mm has a 19 round magazine. The smaller the gun, obviously the smaller the magazine capacity. And traditional 45s generally take single stack magazines and thus have a smaller capacity (7 or 8 rounds).
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:45 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by luv View Post
Did I misspeak? I don't think the average person needs an oozie. I take it an oozie is not a semi-automatic?

Alright, did a little research. I need to replace semi-automatic with fully automatic.
That moves you back to the right of center on the gun issue on my personal ChiefsPlanet member scorecard.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:48 AM   #247
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= When your “gun” contracts a venereal disease.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:49 AM   #248
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oozie?

A buddy of mine once had one of those after a stay in thailand.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:52 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
That's much better. Let me probe a little bit more. You say you could support the idea of requiring a safety/usage course to make sure a person is intelligent enough to own a gun. That seems like a reasonable (or at least an arguably reasonable) position. Some people think there ought to be a basic intelligence test required before a citizen is allowed to vote. Both gun ownership and voting are rights. Do you think testing for a basic level of intelligence should be allowed in both cases?

I think the line you draw that outlaws semi-automatic weapons is left of the current center in our country, but there are certainly large groups of people to the left of you such as those who want to ban handguns altogether.

I would say that you're left of center, but pretty moderate when it comes to guns. And that might be colored by the fact that I live in the rural midwest. If I lived in a deep blue state, I might think you were a right of center moderate.
Thank you. But please replace any mention I made of "semi" automatic with "fully" automatic. I was getting the terms confused.

Actually, I do think there should be a certain capacity required to vote as well. I know that people have their "motives" or reasons for voting the way that they do, which is fine as long as it comes with a basic understanding of how our governments works. For example, it would even be fine if someone didn't vote for Obama simply because he's African-American as long they had a valid reason for voting for the opponent. However, if that's someone's reasoning for voting against someone, then they probably care nothing about politics or government in general.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:52 AM   #250
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And BTW, Luv, you can legally purchase an oozie. It will just be a semi-automatic oozie.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:54 AM   #251
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It is also worth noting that the way the graph Direckshun posted displays the (mis-stated Gallup data), is also deceiving. The Y axis values have about an inch between them so what would only amount to a couple of percentage points looks like a significant drop. Gallup chose not to display the data that way at all in their own graph which shows what it is closer to the truth based on their data: steady gun ownership in the United States that is increasing.
You won't get a response from heshe. You have completely blown heshe's assertions out of the water, called heshe on its BS. Rather than fess up and take a big bite of that shit sammich, heshe will simply act like you or your posts do not exist. Admitting heshe was wrong, or was deliberately trying to be deceitful, is not in heshe's wheelhouse of acceptable behaviors.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:55 AM   #252
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And BTW, Luv, you can legally purchase an oozie. It will just be a semi-automatic oozie.
Fraz, if my presence here has done nothing besides entertain you, then it was worth it.

I have learned quite a bit though.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:00 PM   #253
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Fraz, if my presence here has done nothing besides entertain you, then it was worth it.

I have learned quite a bit though.
So, do you want to buy your own gun now?
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:08 PM   #254
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So, do you want to buy your own gun now?
NO I TOLD YOU LESS PEOPLE ARE BUYING GUNS NOW I EVEN POSTED A LINK CANT YOU READ SWING AND A MISS???/Direckshun
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:13 PM   #255
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