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Old 12-16-2012, 11:35 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Let's research gun violence.

I've said this in a couple other threads, but I don't believe that gun control is going to get any traction in Congress. Some Democrats will push for it, some other Republicans will table it, some pro-gun control folks like myself will cry foul, and yet another Congress will pass without any gun control measures seeing the light of day.

But here's one thing that maybe we can start doing: better educate ourselves on gun violence, so we can stop stabbing in the dark as to what we can better do to mitigate it.

The problem is that for a couple decades now, the government has not been able to produce any information on gun violence because the NRA has been threatening war if Congress failed to choke off all funding for gun-related research.

The CDC and NIH used to conduct research for decades, but around the time of the late 90s, the NRA became so powerful it was able to prevent these agencies from granting funds to researchers on those topics. McClatchy DC:

Quote:
The CDC and NIH award billions in grants. They fund research into cancer, brain injury, tobacco use, obesity, AIDS, abortion, hearing loss, allergies, infectious diseases, back pain and virtually everything else related to human health. But gun violence is the one area that carries that specific language. The effect has been to limit federal funding into research that could be used to shape policy.
This is irresponsible. We pass hundreds of gun-related laws across the country every few years. Like all laws, we should be able to research the impact of the laws we pass, so we can make decisions based on more than pure ideology.

Anyway, there's a ton of stories on this, but here's a really good one from last year in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us...anted=all&_r=0

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
By MICHAEL LUO
Published: January 25, 2011

In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”

The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.

The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.

Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.

“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.

In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.

“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.

In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.

“For policy to be effective, it needs to be based on evidence,” said Dr. Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis, who had his C.D.C. financing cut in 1996. “The National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress have largely succeeded in choking off the development of evidence upon which that policy could be based.”

Private foundations initially stepped into the breach, but their attention tends to wax and wane, researchers said. They are also much more interested in work that leads to immediate results and less willing to finance basic epidemiological research that scientists say is necessary to establishing a foundation of knowledge about the connection between guns and violence, or the lack thereof.

The National Institute of Justice, part of the Justice Department, also used to finance firearms research, researchers said, but that money has also petered out in recent years. (Institute officials said they hoped to reinvigorate financing in this area.)

Stephen Teret, founding director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, estimated that the amount of money available for firearms research was a quarter of what it used to be. With so much uncertainty about financing, Mr. Teret said, the circle of academics who study the phenomenon has fallen off significantly.

After the centers’ clash with the N.R.A., Mr. Teret said he was asked by C.D.C. officials to “curtail some things I was saying about guns and gun policy.”

Mr. Teret objected, saying his public comments about gun policy did not come while he was on the “C.D.C. meter.” After he threatened to file a lawsuit against the agency, Mr. Teret said, the officials backed down and gave him “a little bit more leeway.”

C.D.C. financing for research on gun violence has not stopped completely, but it is now mostly limited to work in which firearms are only a component.

The centers also ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the N.R.A. as a courtesy, said Thomas Skinner, a spokesman for the centers.

Invariably, researchers said, whenever their work touches upon firearms, the C.D.C. becomes squeamish. In the end, they said, it is often simply easier to avoid the topic if they want to continue to be in the agency’s good graces.

Dr. Stephen Hargarten, professor and chairman of emergency medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, used to direct a research center, financed by the C.D.C., that focused on gun violence, but he said he had now shifted his attention to other issues.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:51 PM   #346
RedNeckRaider RedNeckRaider is offline
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Originally Posted by KChiefer View Post
Yeah, all they have to do is sit back, , and watch the money roll in.

Or how about people now buying guns with the intent of reselling because of a possible ban. Are they not exploiting tragedy?

Alright, you set the date. When is gun control OK to talk about?
When you show you are smart enough...I'll wait~
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:53 PM   #347
KChiefer KChiefer is offline
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"You're stoopid."

Is that all you guys have?
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:55 PM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KChiefer View Post
Yeah, all they have to do is sit back, , and watch the money roll in.

Or how about people now buying guns with the intent of reselling because of a possible ban. Are they not exploiting tragedy?

Alright, you set the date. When is gun control OK to talk about?
You realize the NRA is not a store, right?

as for the timing;



"The National Rifle Association of America is made up of four million moms and dads, sons and daughters – and we were shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders in Newtown.

Out of respect for the families, and as a matter of common decency, we have given time for mourning, prayer and a full investigation of the facts before commenting.

The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.

The NRA also plans to hold a press conference on Friday."
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:56 PM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KChiefer View Post
"You're stoopid."

Is that all you guys have?
Well, it sort of cuts to the heart of everything you post here.

In other surprising news, water is wet and women have secrets.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:57 PM   #350
CrazyPhuD CrazyPhuD is offline
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Originally Posted by KChiefer View Post
google "nra facebook page"

Perhaps they brought their page back up, I dunno, but at some point they took it down.

You see any NRA spokesmen in the media this weekend? No? It wasn't because they weren't asked to be part of the discussion, it's because they're afraid to be part of the discussion.
Honestly there's tactics and then there is strategy. The NRA had almost nothing to win by saying anything and everything to lose. Emotions ruled the day and anything they said would be twisted by those that wish to exploit it. Ditto for have their social media pages up. It would only act as a flame to draw moths. Unless you have a reason to distract them, there is not reason to let them use your brand to advance their agenda.

While respect is one reason to maintain silence, tactics is yet another. Just because you don't hear them doing something doesn't mean they aren't. Did the US announce to the world before they hit Bin Laden? No...because sometimes stealth and subtlety are better tools than screaming it from the mountain tops.

Plus remember the old adage....he who argues with a fool...is a fool.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:00 PM   #351
KChiefer KChiefer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesCrusher View Post
You realize the NRA is not a store, right?

as for the timing;



"The National Rifle Association of America is made up of four million moms and dads, sons and daughters – and we were shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders in Newtown.

Out of respect for the families, and as a matter of common decency, we have given time for mourning, prayer and a full investigation of the facts before commenting.

The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.

The NRA also plans to hold a press conference on Friday."
You do realize they profit from guns in many ways don't you?

And waiting until Friday does not change anything other than they can falsely act like they have a moral highground, because they "waited out of respect."
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:00 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by KChiefer View Post
"You're stoopid."

Is that all you guys have?

On this issue you are a tool nothing more. 20 years from now I will still have all my guns & then some.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:03 PM   #353
RedNeckRaider RedNeckRaider is offline
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On this issue you are a tool nothing more. 20 years from now I will still have all my guns & then some.
He has to be trolling~
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:14 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by KChiefer View Post
You do realize they profit from guns in many ways don't you?

And waiting until Friday does not change anything other than they can falsely act like they have a moral highground, because they "waited out of respect."
People like you should be shot.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:17 PM   #355
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by verbaljitsu View Post
Direckshun:

the graph that you posted which cites Gallup data, does not appear to be consistent with what Gallup actually says: that gun ownership (as of 2011) is as high as it has been in roughly two decades. 47% of American adults have a gun in their home
47% is a reduction.

Basically, if we are to operate with broad swaths, Republicans and conservatives are arming up, while independents and liberals are moving away from gun ownership, with the liberal migration more pronounced.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:21 PM   #356
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by verbaljitsu View Post


The gallup data referenced above, taken directly from their website...notice how it is completely opposite of what the other graph says it is.
Gallup is one poller of several, and they even show a decline, however slight, over the past several decades with occasional spikes.

Other pollsters, most recently GSS, have assessed declining gun ownership in America.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:22 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by verbaljitsu View Post
It is also worth noting that the way the graph Direckshun posted displays the (mis-stated Gallup data), is also deceiving. The Y axis values have about an inch between them so what would only amount to a couple of percentage points looks like a significant drop. Gallup chose not to display the data that way at all in their own graph which shows what it is closer to the truth based on their data: steady gun ownership in the United States that is increasing.
Fair point.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:23 PM   #358
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
I'm quite fascinated by the reaction to this awful tragedy.

Does anyone think that something specific happened overnight that is responsible for these acts of random violence? If you do, then that's incredibly naive.

Gun laws and ownership are but a small, possibly negligble, cause of these incidents. Guns have been around forever. What's changed in the last few decades?

Out of wedlock birth rate has skyrocketed. Most people view abortion as birth control instead of murder. More and more religions are seen as evil instead of key drivers of societal ethics and morals. Church attendance and the communities that they foster are dwindling.

I don't necessarily blame violent programming, movies or video games, but they sure do reflect this society's tolerance for violence. These are forms of entertainment that would have been taboo only 20-30 years ago.

Now, does that mean that every boy that is born out of wedlock, with negligent parenting and an addicition to Call of Duty will become a serial killer? No.

But that tiny fraction (which is what it is) of boys that grow up neglected, abused or bullied that find a release into violent movies or activites to further remove themselves from human contact are at danger of becoming just the type of guy this Lanza kid was.

When/if another one of these boys decides life isn't worth living anymore, he'll do so just after living out one of his 'fantasies' that this society has created for him.

Gun control indeed.
I don't buy that video games contribute to violence.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:23 PM   #359
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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It looks like Barry has been good for gun sales. I know my gun stocks have done very well.
Heh.

Democratic administrations are always good for gun sales.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:24 PM   #360
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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What? You realize you’ve been proven wrong, right?
Come again?
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